“It’s worse than Iraq,” Rharrit, a former U.S. diplomat, told Mehdi, adding how she watched pictures “going viral of U.S.-made bombs that would say USA and then would show the children that were killed by those bombs.”
I’m no fan of Biden’s policies and have nothing but contempt for Netanyahu and his fascist government, but claiming our commitment to Israel’s security is worse than Iraq is rich, to say the least.
Foremost, Biden didn’t start the war, nor did Israel, Hamas committed an atrocity against Israel. We can debate Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians before the terror attack, but it still doesn’t justify the slaughter of innocent civilians, or the hostage taking.
Secondly, Biden didn’t manufacture a war that caused the deaths of more than 500,000 Iraqi civilians. Remember, “Shock and Awe”? The bombing of civilian buildings were part of for the course. Not to mention, the $2.5 trillion price tag and over 10k American deaths and 50k casualties.
And lastly, Israel isn’t the 51st state of America, nor is it a protectorate. They are an ally, and when a country’s national security is at stake, they will rarely take advice from anyone, even the country providing them with weapons.
Our relationship with Israel is deeper than the Israeli/Palestinian problem. We have other priorities in the region, including reducing Iran’s influence in the region, and Israel is a big part of the overall security blanket we need to secure our other Allie’s in the region.
We are reluctant partners with Netanyahu, but you can’t change an entire national security strategy because of the Palestinian conflict. Additionally, where is the outrage against Hamas?
Ask yourself why we have an entire Republican Party, including their presidential nominee in Putin’s pocket?
When you can answer that question, feel free to get back to me.
It comes down to strategic interests. The reason we can’t control our Allie’s (not just Israel, we have the same issues with the Saudi’s), is the fact that “countries have no friends, only interests.”
Our commitment to a Israel is due to the fact that Israel is part of a wider security apparatus in the region; military and intelligence, that all share a common interest, controlling and reducing Iran’s aggression, power and proxies in the region.
"When you can answer that question, feel free to get back to me"
Asking and answering his own question :)
"It comes down to strategic interests."
We are yet to learn what "security apparatus" Israel provide us (the USA) that is worth so many Billion a year and the political cost that we pay to shield this genocidal regime in the UN.
And would we need this "security apparatus" if we were not so complicit in their crimes against humanity.
"When you can answer that question, feel free to get back to me"
Oh please, they aren’t a genocidal regime. They’ve committed acts of genocide after being brutally attacked by a TERRORIST REGIME! And what regime in the ME isn’t genocidal? Every regime in the ME has committed acts of genocide.
Where’s your outrage in Yemen? Iran, the Saudi Arabia and UAE have killed more people than Israel, against other Muslims: 150k by bombing, and famine has killed another 275k people. In addition, in the last nine years over 4.5 million people have been displaced. So again, where’s your outrage of a genocide that has been going on for a decade?
Or the 500k killed by Assad in Syria during the Arab Spring: millions displaced and even more dying of starvation and disease.
And how about the Sudan? Eight million displaced and 14,500 killed since December alone!
Or how about the ethnic cleansing of Armenians taking place in Azerbaijan? 100,400 ethnic Armenians, representing 99% of the remaining population of Nagorno-Karabakh, fled by the end of September, last year. Tens of thousands killed and even more wounded.
So don’t talk about genocidal regimes, unless you’re willing to admit that terror and destruction is caused by all parties. Hamas treats the Palestinians under their rule with an iron fist. NGO’s and journalists alike live in fear when working in Gaza. And not just because of the Israeli’s. Hamas disappears people and tortures them to death.
So wake up from your perennial stupor of ignorance. It’s the Middle East; we can either continue to argue about the past, or find a solution to the future.
And no one wins this argument because all it leads to is more death, destruction and chaos.
Whataboutism? Please! I’m calling out your hypocrisy, ignorance and biases. It’s about being Jewish and your hatred of Jews. Otherwise, you’d acknowledge the other regimes are far worse. Yet you won’t even acknowledge the actual genocides taking place in all the wonderful Arab and Muslim countries in the region. Or their treatment under Muslim monarchies and dictatorships.
How are Jews treated in every other Arab state? Oh that’s right, they’ve been driven out and forced into ghettos. Yet, 2.5 million Palestinians live in Israel; living side by side with their fellow Jewish citizens.
Get a grip, you don’t even understand the word “preemptive”. What a joke!
Israel and Egypt have for many years been the largest recipients of US aid as a bribe for signing a peace treaty with each other when Jimmy Carter was President. Egyptian President Anwar Sadat said words to the effect that he didn’t care how heavily every Israeli man, woman and child were armed just so long as there was peace. Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin — a former terrorist himself — went along with this because even though he wanted the West Bank for Israel this would make him look like a “peacemaker” to the Americans.
The result is ambivalent at best. On the one hand, the Israelis and Egyptians haven’t gone to war with each other since 1973. On the other, we’ve managed to attach ourselves to some odious figures on both sides, starting with Sadat and Begin.
Sadat was killed by the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist organization. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Ayman al-Zawahiri, was one of the masterminds of the Sadat assassination, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and went to jail. He later became Osama Bin Laden’s second in command in Al Qaeda.
Don’t fool yourself; the region is filled with shady characters on both sides. We can’t avoid them, and in most cases, we have to deal with them. And if not them, then characters far worse.
Hence, all the simple, easy to understand, wrong answers to a complex problem we call the Middle East. In short, it’s always been a Powder Keg…:)
"We can debate Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians before the terror attack, but it still doesn’t justify the slaughter of innocent civilians, or the hostage taking"....There's nothing to debate anymore. 2 Billion Muslims and Billions more are demanding that Israel pay for Killing over 500,000 innocent Palestinians since 1948, over 98% of them Muslims...Jesus said an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth....So it's it's only fair we have an Israeli for every Palestinian that was slaughtered by the Illigal Zionist occupiers...That's the only way Israel will stop the genocide.. ..Take your antisemitism and violence crap and stick it where the sun doesn't shine....You don't seem to have the same respect for any non-jewish life or for non-jewish religion.....The world will not tolerate your hypocrisy moving forward....The fact is the day my fellow American brothers and sisters wake up and see how the Zionists are using this country and American blood Israel will disappear
I have a lot of respect for non-Jewish lives, apparently you don’t have any respect for Jews. 500,000 killed since 1948? I’m sorry, I believe it was several Arab states that started the wars in 48’, 67’, 73’ and the PLO using Lebanon as a staging ground for terror attacks against Israel. And that’s after the PLO invaded Lebanon in 1975; creating a state within a state, as they started a civil war that has destroyed Lebanon, its economy, and left 150,000 dead, tens of thousands wounded, and hundreds of thousands displaced and left destitute. And this war didn’t include Israel. Lebanon still hasn’t recovered.
Additionally, where is your outrage against Assad? He killed over 500k of his own people during the Arab Spring? Or Saddam, who gassed 300k Kurds? Or the Iran/Iraq war in which Iran sacrificed over a million kids, forcing them to walk into mine fields, just to clear them for their troops. Or the continued demonic treatment of the Afghans under the Taliban rule. Or Turkey committing atrocities against the Kurds!
I can play this game better than you, since you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about or the complexities of the region.
So do us both a favor, and take your own advice, and stick your opinion up your ____!
And if I ever want your advice, I’ll give it to you! Have a great day!…:)
You're misrepresenting the "who started it." Here's the correct sequence of events with regards to 1947-1949. The Palestinians refused to accept UN resolution 181. This partition plan attempted to impose a settlement by giving two-thirds of the indigenous population only 44% of the land. Moreover, the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) was not given a seat at the table to present their case (whereas the Ben-Gurion was). The Zionists ask was 80% of the land for a population entirely consisting of immigrants from Europe (the indigenous Mizrahi Jewish population in 1900 was about 15,000 - the total Jewish population in 1947 was about 600,000). The UN presented itself as "fair minded" by only awarding them 56%. Not incidentally, early Zionists were very clear in their writings - partition was the first step to gaining control of all of historic Palestine (which has been the Zionist endeavour from the get go).
After the Palestinians rejected the partition plan (November 1947), Zionist militias (Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang) put into motion the ethnic cleansing (which the Zionists sanitised by calling it 'transfer') to depopulate Palestinian villages, towns and cities. By May 1948 - when Israel declared its independence - over 250,000 Palestinians were already expelled and the neighbouring Arab countries were faced with a refugee crisis, which is what led them to attack Israel. Needless to say, they all got walloped which is why 78 percent of the land was captured by the Israelis and another half million were driven out in the process (in addition to 15,000-20,000 killed).
Again 1967 was a pre-emptive strike too - another naked land grab. Egypt, Syria, Jordan were caught totally unaware (foolishly and naively in my opinion). Egypt left it's airfields totally exposed and it's airforce was wiped out in a matter of hours. Hardly what a country intending to launch an attack does.
1973 - the Egyptians launched the strike pre-emptively to try and get back the Sinai Peninsula. Jordan joined to try and get the West Bank back. Ultimately I think this paved the way for the pacification of both countries where they realised they couldn't prevail militarily against Israel.
I can cite more souces/provide more details if you like, but to get into this 'in the playground' type of framing of "they started it" doesn't line up against the historical record. The Zionist project is a settler colonial one, where the West, to absolve itself for its shameful history of anti-semitism, gave away somebody else's land without any regard for the people who lived there for centuries (these aren't my words, they're Ilan Pappe's, see: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-palestine-nakba-destroyed-twelve-months-gone-on-75-years). That this would breed resentment and resistance is hardly surprising. The same happened in other settler colonies/military occupations whether it's Ireland, Kenya, Algeria, Vietnam the list goes on. People don't like to have their land taken away from them and to be under the yoke of a foreign military power.
When it comes to moral argument (i.e. where's the outage for Hamas), the words of military historian Robert Asprey are an apt response:
"Terror is the kissing cousin of force, and real or implied, is never far removed from the pages of history. To define and condemn terror from a peculiar social, economic political and emotional plane is to display a self righteous attitude that's totally unrealistic and doomed to be disappointed by harsh facts."
Palestinians don't need to accept anything...It's there land and the occupiers need to either leave voluntarily or by force....and it's almost guaranteed that it would be latter
You lost me with "I believe" ....you can find countless sources to disprove your beliefs. The foundation of the state of Israel was a colonial zionist project.
I was being sarcastic in response to his claim that Israel started every war. They didn’t and is easily proven by history.
And the foundation of every society today in the Middle East and Central Asia was a colonial project, including our countries founding. I’m sorry, did you not learn who created all the nation states and kingdoms in the Middle East today? The European colonists.
At least Israel, as a project, which you suggest was the only one created by the United Nations. It would be two, if the Palestinians accepted the partition. Oh wait, weren’t these lands under the control of Jordan and Egypt? Both nations which refused to give Palestinians control or a separate state? That’s right!
This whole idea that Israel is the only “colonial” project created in the region is ridiculous. Seriously, if this is your best argument, first educate yourself!
“Again 1967 was a pre-emptive strike too - another naked land grab. Egypt, Syria, Jordan were caught totally unaware (foolishly and naively in my opinion). Egypt left it's airfields totally exposed and it's airforce was wiped out in a matter of hours. Hardly what a country intending to launch an attack does.”
I’m not misrepresenting anything. It is said that most lies are “lies of omission.” This is when someone simply fails to mention critical facts about a particular situation, purposely misleading the reader to the wrong conclusion.
I wont speak for the Irgun or Stern, as I consider them terror groups like I view the West Bank and East Jerusalem settlers. However, it wasn’t forced deportation of Palestinians after they refused the partition plan. It was the 1948 war initiated by the Arab states who also refused to accept the UN mandate.
Remember, the Palestinians had no homeland, and weren’t a government in 1947. The Brits controlled what is mostly current day Israel, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1917. Jordan controlled the West Bank and Jerusalem, while the Egyptian’s controlled Gaza. Neither nation agreed to give up land for a Palestinian state. So the Palestinians rejection, was a moot point. The Egyptian’s did allow a Palestinian government, but it was just a puppet government with no real power.
The whole truth is that an estimated 726,000 Arabs fled their homes during Israel’s War of Independence. That war was instigated not by the Jews but by the Arabs, who rejected the United Nations’ plan partitioning the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. Israel accepted that plan, but the Arabs chose war.
The vast majority of Arabs left their villages out of their own free will to avoid being caught in the crossfire of war. They were encouraged to do so by their leaders, who told the Arab public that they would soon remove the Jewish population by force and after which they could return to their homes. So nice try.
And Palestinian groups were also attacking Israeli’s. And given that 2.5 million Palestinians are Israeli citizens inside Israel proper, supports my conclusion that it wasn’t ethnic cleaning, but fighting amongst Palestinians and Jewish groups.
That’s said, your interpretation of the 67’ war is rich. It’s been documented that Egypt, Jordan and Syria were planning a coordinated attack. The difference was Israeli intelligence, which thwarted their plans with a “preemptive” attack.
You, yourself, used the word “preemptive,” which literally means (definition) to preempt or forestall something, especially to prevent attack by disabling the enemy. These were your own words, so stop with the false narrative. Those countries were about to attack and moved their troops and tanks close to the Israeli borders, which they claimed were military exercises at the time.
1/5: What makes you think actors only strike pre-emptively in the face of an imminent threat? That’s the limitation international law places. But anyone living in the real world should know full well that pre-emptive force is often used to gain decisive strategic advantages. For opportunistic reasons when your adversary isn’t expecting it in order to change the circumstances on the ground in your favour. This is what the Israelis successfully managed to achieve in 1967 and what the Egyptians failed to accomplish in 1973 (more on that later). Alas, this isn’t the only shortcoming in your response. It’s yet another farrago of distortions and misrepresentations that demonstrate a factually incorrect and shallow understanding of the historical context which in turn render the conclusions you’ve drawn fundamentally flawed.
Anyone who’s reasonably knowledgeable on this subject should’ve clearly understood the overarching context and background behind my previous post re: what transpired between November 1947 to May 1948. The historical record isn’t disputed amongst serious observers. However, since you seem to be unaware of it, I’ll lay it out in greater detail for your benefit.
Zionism, at least its mainstream stand, is a settler colonial ideology that originated amongst European Jewry in the late 1800s to establish a homeland in between the between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. In fact there are others, albeit a minority, who subscribe to the boundaries laid out in the Book of Exodus – from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River. At the turn of the 20th century, ~95% of the population on this land was Palestinian Arab (overwhelmingly Muslim with a small Christian community). There was also a small Mizrahi Jewish community of ~15,000 (3.2%) who’d lived there for generations alongside their Muslim and Christian neighbours. Early Zionists were fully cognisant of this demographic challenge from the get go. They knew that the creation of a Jewish majority state on all of the territory they coveted would require a drastic form of social engineering. And just to be clear, at no point were the Zionists ever interested in establishing bi-national state or a permanent partition of historic Palestine. According to Israeli historian Simha Flapan, partition was at most viewed as a first step, or a tactical manoeuver in their eventual goal. Flapan quotes David Ben-Gurion, who said in the late 1930s, “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” So much for “Israel accepted the plan, but the Arabs chose war.” As to why the Palestinians rejected the partition plan, briefly there were two reasons. First, the Palestinians, unlike the Zionists, weren’t allowed lobby their case to the UN. Second, Palestinians, who’d called this land their home for at 40-50 generations if not longer and made up two-thirds of the population were only given 44% of the land whereas the remaining 56% was given to a settler population of new migrants who’d been there for ~50 years. Failing to acknowledge that this was a fundamentally unjust proposal is “lying by omission.”
Going back to the social engineering that would be necessary for the Zionists to accomplish their ambition. From the very beginning, early Zionists knew that it’d have to involve ethnic cleansing. Theodore Herzl articulated this in somewhat benign, ambiguous terms when he wrote in his diary in 1895, “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment…. Both the process of expropriation and removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” By the mid-1930s however, Zionist leaders voiced their plans were far more explicitly. In fact, the Jewish Agency held a closed door meeting in June 1938 in which they recognised that the only way to accomplish their goal was through “compulsory transfer.” Ben-Gurion clarified in no uncertain terms what this meant when he wrote in 1941, “it is impossible to imagine (a) general evacuation of the Arab population without compulsion, and brutal compulsion.” Israel’s chief historian Benny Morris makes it very clear that “the idea of transfer is as old as modern Zionism and has accompanied its evolution and praxis during the past century.”
2/5: When it became clear that the UN wasn’t going to try and mediate a more equitable solution (that consulted with the majority population and took demographics into account) than the 56-44 partition plan, the Zionists seized the opportunity to alter the conditions on the ground decisively in their favour. Between November 1947 and May 1948 (i.e. before Israel declared its independence), Zionist militias started the process of forcibly depopulating cities, towns and villages of its Palestinian inhabitants. By late February 1948, after the British withdrew all their forces to the port city Haifa, the militias seized doubled down to accelerate this process (putting into effect Plan Dalet a couple of weeks later). By the end of April, Palestinians were driven out of their homes en masse in the cities of Haifa, Jaffa, Safad, Beisan, Acre and West Jerusalem. This was followed by massacres such as Deir Yassin which increased the fear amongst the population and caused more people to flee. Over 250,000 Palestinians were forcibly expelled and fled to neighbouring Arab countries. In response to this rapidly escalating refugee crisis, the Arab armies reluctantly attacked Israel after its declaration of independence in May 1948. In short, it’s blatantly dishonest to suggest that the “Arabs chose war.”
In fact, the record shows that the neighboring Arab states were reluctant to attack Israel as they were militarily inferior. After all, the Zionist militias which became the IDF had developed into a formidable fighting force under the tutelage of the British in the 1930s and 1940s when they brutally crushed the 1936 Palestinian revolt and fought alongside the British Army in North Africa during WWII. Inevitably, the Arab armies were successfully repelled and another 0.5 million Palestinians were ethnically cleansed as Israel expanded beyond the partition plan borders and captured 78% of the land by the time the armistice was signed in 1949. You’ve raised three factually incorrect points which relate to the 1947-49 period that I’ll address separately in greater detail in the interest of clarity – the status of the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem, Palestinian citizens of Israel and the Arabs fled voluntarily.
Israeli elites at that time were remarkably candid about their fundamental character as a colonising force, and cognisant of the antagonism that this would ferment amongst Palestinians and the larger Arab world. In the wake of the 1948 war, Ben-Gurion candidly told the President of World Jewish Congress, “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel, It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Or Ze’ev Jabotinsky who wrote, “Colonisation is self-explanatory and what it implies is fully understood by every sensible Jew and Arab. There can only be one purpose in colonisation. For the country’s Arabs that purpose is essentially unacceptable. This is a natural reaction and nothing will change it.”
As such, an honest reading of the historical record shows that the 1949 armistice gave birth to a new and uneasy status quo. On one hand, there was Israel whose territorial aspirations weren’t completely fulfilled (I’m just focussing on the mainstream Zionist interpretation of “river to the sea” here). On the other hand, there were the neighbouring Arab countries who were humiliated in 1948 and faced with a more powerful, adversarial and expansionist settler colonial state that they wanted to push back against and ideally dismantle in what was in essence an anti-colonial endeavour from their perspective.
3/5: To digress slightly before discussing June 1967, it is patently false to claim that the West Bank and Jerusalem were part of Transjordan in 1917. Nice try to redraw the map and reinvent history! Look at any map of Mandatory Palestine, throughout 1917-1948, included what is today Green Line Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip from 1917-1948. Even an arm of the Israeli Hasbara machine got it correct (refreshingly for a change, see: https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/The%20League%20of%20Nations%20Mandate%20for%20Palestine%20-%201920.aspx?itid=lk_inline_enhanced-template). Cities and towns that are in the West Bank today, such as Jericho, Nablus, Jenin, Ramallah etc. were all part of Mandatory Palestine, never Transjordan. Jerusalem too was under British control throughout the mandate. This is completely in line with the intent expressed in the Balfour Declaration. Gaza and the West Bank only came under Egyptian and Jordanian control post 1948 (I’ll discuss Gaza separately further below in response to your point on the Palestinian citizens of Israel). In his book “Collusion Across the Jordan,” British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim provides a detailed account of how the Hashemite King of Jordan covertly negotiated with the Zionists before the end of the British mandate to gain control of the West Bank because he wanted access to more fertile land (Jordan itself is mostly arid desert). In exchange, the Jordanians held back their forces while the Zionist militias went on to capture and ethnically cleanse cities such as Lydd and Ramleh as well as the surrounding towns and villages just beyond the West Bank and absorb them all into the state of Israel. The Israelis were prepared to temporarily accept this outcome so they wouldn’t have to contend with potentially having another ~300,000 Palestinians within their borders for the time being (contextualised further below in response to your point regarding the Palestinian citizens of Israel).
Attack by Jordan and Syria and Egypt was imminent in 1967: this assertion is patently false. When Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban told Lyndon Johnson on May 26, 1967 that its Arab neighbours were about to launch an attack, Robert McNamara refuted this claim with reports from three separate intelligence groups who all unanimously agreed “that an attack was not imminent.” Moreover, Washington knew full well that Israel’s military was far superior to the militaries of all the Arab countries combined. Johnson’s response to Eban makes this abundantly clear: “if they do, you’ll whip the hell out of them.” Following the Six Day War, five Israeli Generals – Ezer Weizmann, Chiam Herzog, Haim Bar Lev, Matitiyahu Peled and Yeshiyahu Gavish – the affirmed this assessment. As I already mentioned in my previous post, Israel launched this pre-emptive attack in June 1967 to expand its borders, to correct the “fatal historical mistake.” This is completely in line with the territorial ambitions of the Zionist project, which coveted the West Bank from the get go. Not only was the land very fertile, but its symbolic importance in Jewish tradition is massive.
For as long as he was in power, Ben-Gurion was caught in a dilemma. On one hand, he lamented colluding with King Abdullah I in what he termed “bechiya ledorot” or a “fatal historical mistake.” Yet throughout his time in power until 1963, he ultimately resisted pressure from other factions within Israel to capture the West Bank because he firmly believed that the nascent Jewish state wasn’t in a position to absorb hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. According to Israeli historian Tom Segev, the “Greater Israel Lobby” gained far more influence after Ben-Gurion left government and pushed much harder for the annexation of the West Bank. In short, the impetus to launch an attack to achieve this end markedly increased from 1963 onwards.
This is not to say that the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians didn’t ‘poke the bear’ with provocative skirmishes with the Israelis throughout the 1950s and 1960s. Gamal Abdul Nasser employed a dangerous tactic called “brinksmanship” where he test the limits of the Israeli and UN response by deploying some troops in the Sinai Peninsula (which was to be a demilitarised zone after the 1956 Suez Crisis). While the Jordanians employed hostile rhetoric on occasion, they actually killed and captured more Palestinians attempting to infiltrate the Green Line than the Israelis did throughout the 1960s. And yes, there were tit for tat retaliations between Israel and Syria along the border. Damascus also hosted the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) which undoubtedly antagonised the Israelis. But to contend that Israel somehow faced an existential threat, an imminent attack from its neighbours is hyperbolic nonsense.
"when a country’s national security is at stake, they will rarely take advice from anyone, even the country providing them with weapons."
Well, if they know the country supplying them with weapons will ALWAYS supply them with weapons no matter what, that does tend to reduce the incentive to take the advice, doesn't it?
Secondly, do you seriously believe that Israel is being made MORE secure by what they're doing today in Gaza?
In answer to your second question, I have said NO! If you actually read my comments, you’d know I was against the invasion, and have no love lost for Netanyahu, or his fascist cohorts in the Knesset.
They are war criminals, as is Hamas. What’s missing from many who comment, is the outrage of other actual genocides taking place in the region, in which Israel isn’t involved. Where’s the outrage or condemnation? Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Armenia, etc….
In answer to your first question, we supply Israel with weapons for several reasons. Under the terms of the Israel/Egyptian Peace Accord (1977), we are required to arm both Israel and Egypt. Secondly, like I’ve tried to convey in earlier posts, it’s not just about the Palestinians.
America has strategic interests in the region. Like it or not, when we stop needing oil, and our western and Asian Allies stop needing oil, no one will give a damn about the region: it’s called realpolitik and every nation chooses sides for their own strategic interests.
Additionally, We have an obligation to our Allies, as the only true superpower, to make sure the oil keeps flowing; keeping global prices constant or as stable as possible for all of our economies to prosper. 25% of the global oil supply ships out of the Persian Gulf. The Straight of Hormuz is only 21 miles wide (certain parts) and easy pickings if Iran wanted to shut down the ship lanes. Which would cause oil prices to rise into the stratosphere. Israel is part of the strategic bulwark that keeps Iran’s aggression and proxies in check, so they can’t act with impunity.
Look how bent and out of shape Americans get when the national price of oil is above $5 a gallon? they’re willing to elect a fascist authoritarian kleptocrat and replace democracy forever.
This is my point Steve. This issue is complex. Yet, all I hear from commenters are simple, easy to understand wrong answers to this conundrum.
So we can continue to debate the past, or try to resolve the conflict for the future. I choose the latter option!
Seriously Davena, learn the meaning of the word troll before you continue to embarrass yourself. I was the one initially posting, you and Steve are the trolls! If you don’t like my views, you don’t need to respond.
No wonder you don’t understand the complexities of the Middle East conflict, you don’t even know what a troll is. Maybe one day you’ll at least finish your GED; good luck and god speed…:)
We can agree on that point. I’m not arguing any of this is right, but what is your solution? Apparently, the solution of most of the commenters, is that Israel needs to pick up and leave or be killed.
Only delusional imbeciles would think this option is possible or achievable. Israel is a nuclear nation (fourth largest stockpile in the world), with one of the best militaries, and best intelligence network in the region. They are the third largest economy in Central Asia; behind Turkey and Saudi Arabia, respectively. And while Israel has little natural resource wealth, they are close to a $600 billion GDP in a country of 8.5 million. Compare that to Saudi Arabia’s GDP of $750 billion, and a population of 40 million.
Additionally, Israel’s economy is based on technology. And next to Silicon Valley, Israel’s high tech sector is second to none.
That said, I’d like to find a solution, not continually hear from the dreamers who live in a false reality. So when this newsletter is about Gaza being worse than the manufactured war in Iraq, I call BS. It’s not even close, and only hurts any possible chance of reconciliation into the future, since we’re arguing about the past, and not focusing on the future.
Depends which side of history you want to be on. Do you want to be the simple-minded moralizer arguing slavery is wrong, or do you want to be the sophisticated guy pointing out how essential slavery is to the economy of the South?
Defending Israel’s right to exist is in your mind defending slavery? Got it! It’s all Israel’s fault!
Seriously, find a good therapist, you definitely have a few bats flying around the attic. And only a simple minded moron would even make that suggestion. I’ll leave it at that! Have a good evening!
You ever seen The Sorrow and The Pity, about the Nazi occupation of France? The people who were in the resistance are interviewed, none of them have anything very sophisticated to say beyond "I wanted the Germans out of my country", but the people who stood by and did nothing, or even aided the occupiers, oh boy do they have some sophisticated arguments to make.
Steve, with all due respect, I don’t need to see a holocaust documentary to understand the Holocaust. I lost 75% of my family to the Nazi’s and Russians, something you’ll never understand and hopefully never experience.
Secondly, you seem to think you’re on the right side of history, yet you have no conception of history, and conflate actions of individual men with the state of Israel, at a time of great mass confusion, a genocide and years of conflict in Palestine.
I, like many Jews do not believe the Israeli response was required. Netanyahu is sending Israel down a rabbit hole, which will only make matters worse for all parties, and only intensify future conflicts.
Many of us believe in a two state solution, and would like to handover Netanyahu and his cohorts to the ICC for crimes against humanity. The treatment of the Palestinians in the territories is inhumane.
I’ve actually been fighting through the J Street, which is a Jewish PAC that supports a two-state solution and is the antithesis of AIPAC. I have family in Israel fighting for Palestinian rights. What are you doing except criticizing people in a comment section? Exactly!
Furthermore, you believe Iran, where women are beaten to death for not wearing a hijab is far more democratic nation than Israel? It’s this stupidity, and your compete ignorance of the region that makes people like you dangerous.
I’ve lived in Beirut, Tel Aviv, Morocco, Tunisia and traveled to Jordan, Egypt and the UAE on business for weeks and months at a time. I listen to different viewpoints all the time, and my opinions evolve over time. I judge each individual event separately, rather than conflating decades and centuries of pain experienced by all parties. What’s your experience and understanding of the issues? You read a few newsletters and documentaries?
And you actually think watching a documentary makes you an expert, and gives you all the answers? I’ve listened to your nonsense as much as I’m willing to put up with.
What’s interesting is that in your comments you manage to say a lot of things, yet nothing worthwhile; all at the same time. A difficult feat, indeed!
So continue with your useless rants and ridiculous nonsense, I really couldn’t care less!
Robert McNamara was a brilliant man, well-read, well-travelled, conversant with all the experts on Southeast Asia. He knew far more and had much more sophisticated ideas than the students who were chanting "Hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?"
Looking back on it now, who was wrong and who was right?
(Now let's all watch Robert deliberately misinterpret this as "He's saying Israel=Vietnam! That's just CRAZY TALK!")
George Schultz, Ronald Reagan's Secretary of State was much more widely read, more widely travelled, more generally knowledgeable about the world than the college students in their encampments demanding divestment from Apartheid South Africa. Schultz had many sophisticated arguments for why the students demands were unrealistic and even hurtful to the people they claimed to be helping.
It's not a documentary about the Holocaust, it's a documentary about the occupation of France (although the Holocaust does feature in it, with regard to Jews shipped from France for extermination.)
And my point, which you're repeatedly (maybe deliberately?) missing is that "My analysis is sophisticated and yours is not" is not quite the devastating put-down you seem to think it is. Throughout history, people have always had "sophisticated" arguments for why we can do no more than to accommodate evil. that any fundamental change based on admittedly simple moral principles is impractical and even impossible. Usually these people are wrong, I can supply other examples if you're interested, but I'm guessing you're not.
If you’re accusing me of standing by or being complicit, think again. You’re as much a bystander as I am. And I never defended Netanyahu or his policies. I’ve been extremely critical of him, and his tin-foil hat religious wing-nut government; even before this war.
As far as I’m concerned, this invasion is and was a mistake, especially Rafah. Netanyahu is heading Israel down a rabbit hole; the same revenge tour w conducted after 9/11. And the total damage still incalculable.
That said, I take issue with this whole idea that the state of Israel itself is illegitimate and a colonialist experiment or project. The entire ME was divided by the West. Are you suggesting all the gulf and Sunni governments relinquish their control and leave? Or what is your solution? I actually haven’t heard anything come from your comments except criticism of me. No actual refuting of the facts.
And you are naive, because you don’t understand the complexities of the region; if you did, you’d be actually providing evidence that I’m wrong.
So don’t expect me to respond to your next comment. I’d rather focus my time on finding solutions to this tragedy, instead of having to defend Jewry against a bush of anti-Semitic individuals (not suggesting your are one) who think Gaza is worse than Iraq, or worse than any of the other genocides taking place in the ME, Africa and Central Asia, as we speak.
Israel is supported as far more than just an ally, in the sense that (for example) the US team at Oslo included Martin Indyk, who ran AIPAC. There is a backchannel that has been incompletely explored. Suppose the US ambassador to Israel was a Palestinian American, would that change things? There are active conflicts of interest that have encouraged Israel to put expansion above prudence.
The other problem for Israel today is unconditional US support has led to moral hazard. Israel is in mortal danger of self-destruction. For the past 7 months it has been openly killing its neighbor's kids while the entire neighborhood is watching, in real time. How do you think that will end?
Eventually, Israel must live with its neighbors, and all the US can do is provide money, weapons, vetoes, and knock off it neighbors.....Iraq, Libya, Syria. Iran is hopefully a bridge too far.
I agree with some of your comments. America is bought and paid for by special interests, but some of those interests are National Security interests, which I’ve already documented or commented on.
As for knocking off its neighbors? Not quite! Jordan and Egypt are at peace with Israel. Morocco and Tunisia also have relations with Israel. Syria supports Hezbollah, and Iran supports both Hezbollah and Hamas.
The Sunni Gulf states have had National security agreements with Israel for over a decade. Israel has even used Saudi airspace to conduct air operations against Iran and their intelligence agencies share information on Iran regularly.
What all these countries have in common is they have all used the Palestinian issue as a political football in the past. Today, all view the Palestinians as a problem no one wants to deal with.
So ask yourself why no one cares about the Palestinians? It’s because they’ve always been a thorn in the side of every one of these countries.
The biggest mistake Israel made was occupying these territories. They tried to give Gaza back to the Egyptian’s during the return of the Sinai Peninsula, but Egypt didn’t want Gaza back. Jordan was offered the West Bank and flatly refused.
Yet, here we are. Today, while we argue about the history, and all the wrongs and atrocities committed by not only Israel, but all of these nations, including the Palestinians (see Lebanon Civil War in which the PLO created a state within a state), the religious fanatics on by sides grow stronger and more intransigent.
Perhaps a paradigm shift in these discussions is warranted…:)
The Palestinians are the only group with legal standing to contest the land, which is why Israel wants them gone. The model they are mimicking is that of the US and native americans... attrition, killing, expulsions, and thats whats been happening, and it continues.
The difference now is that the US is no longer as dominant. Israels behavior is a threat to US national security because it is accelerating US decline. The script has flipped. Biden is living in nostalgia, and his professionals are disgusted.
It is also really dumb to attack students with weapons rather than arguments. This will only mean that the protests grow. This is why the Lobby is pushing the nuclear option of pushing for a law that makes criticism of Israel illegal. Like frankenstein they are panicking in the sunshine, they prefer the shadows.
I agree with this assessment. I have not defended Netanyahu or his fascist government. This invasion was a revenge tour that’s only making matters worse, and pulling all of Israel into a rabbit hole; while these religious fanatics are deciding the fate of both countries.
And I agree, Israel is bringing us down with them. I was only defending Israel’s right to exist, and the ridiculous argument that Gaza is worse than the manufactured war in Iraq.
Otherwise, we agree that this is a travesty and the Palestinians are suffering greatly.
I don't think any country has a "right" to exist. The Israelis are sensitive on this point, and they need to get over it. The charge of antisemitism is getting silly, specially when it is now applied to Jewish Americans.
It is becoming increasingly clear to all that the Palestinians are the victims. Again, a role reversal.
Huh? No country has the right to exist? That’s your story and you’re sticking to it? I won’t bother even trying to respond!
I agree, it’s not all anti-semitism. Many on this site are Hamas supporters. So you’re right, it’s not anti-semitism, it’s pure hatred of Jews. How many will even suggest that Hamas slaughtered Jews? All I hear are people saying Jews deserved it.
Palestinians have lived in an open air prison aka concentration camp controlled by Israel for decades. Please know your middle eastern history before repeating Israeli propaganda.
Human Rights Groups have been writing extensive damning reports against Israel for years. Have you not been following along? Or that just doesn't fit your narrative? Is it too uncomfortable for you to read them?
I know my history, and according to you, Palestinians have been treated badly in the occupied territories since 48’. Perhaps you’re confusing the treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, by Egypt and Jordan, respectively; since Israel did t control the territories until 1967.
And Nakba did occur, but not in the scale you say. Palestinians did leave on their own accord, because the Arab leaders told them to. And the Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel in 1948; this is not in dispute. And Whether you agree that Israel should, or not exist by a UN mandate, is irrelevant since it does, in fact exist.
That said, I’m not going to debate the past. I have never supported the occupation. I don’t support the Netanyahu government, and I certainly didn’t support the response to the horrendous terrorist attack by Hamas on October 6th.
The difference between me and a lot of people in this discussion, is I believe in a two state solution, and condemn the current Israeli government, while it appears you, and many others support the Hamas government that is responsible of the attack.
By the way, these same world human rights groups that criticize Israel (I agree) for their treatment of the Palestinians, also criticize Hamas, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Hezbollah, and every other Middle Eastern government in the region.
Great interview! Nice to get an insider's perspective. Would be nice to go deeper into their personal experiences in the White House post Oct.7th. Tariq's admission of the White House dictating policy to educational institutions in this matter was so interesting.
And explains the authoritarianism witnessed across university campuses in America. They are afraid. Of what, exactly? Equality? Human rights for all?
After thoroughly analysing and reading about Israeli's lies, I have found that the following process/mechanism/stratagem has been ALWAYS followed by Israel :
1. First : Israel publishes a false statement (Oct. 7th lies, Al Maamadani Massacre, Sheereen Abu Akla killing ...etc). Then these false "statements" are automatically spread by the majority (if not all) mainstream media as being the official information coming from Israel. So, the whole "civilised" world retains these "statements" because Israel (used to have) has "legitimacy".
2. After several days, Israel, sometimes, publishes a new statement refuting its first statement (sometimes accompanied by a crazy argument). This erratum is not always relayed by mainstream media, and even when it is relayed, it is done briefly.
Outcome : Israel knows that the impact of its first "false" statement will be VERY IMPORTANT on the audience. Israel also knows that its second statement will not get much attention, because in the meantime, the well-oiled propaganda machine has already allowed Israel to get all the returns it wants from the first "false" statement. Besides, to keep its "legitimacy", the second statement is always here for those who dare to say that Israel is spreading lies.
The early interview was excellent and I applaud all three of the guests for their bravery in not being complicit in the administration’s handling of the situation in Israel. But the show totally lost me in the Mary Trump interview. It was put forward that people aren’t paying attention to the disaster of a second Trump presidency. I would counter that people are paying to the disaster of the Biden presidency. The Rafah redline was crossed but another 1.2 billion worth of weaponry is being sent to Netanyahu. So our choice for the country is a crazy authoritarian former president or the current unrepentant war criminal president who just is incapable of changing course. He and the faction of the Democratic Party that still is supporting his stance on the Gaza genocide are handing the next election to Trump. Mary says it’s too late in the game to change candidates and to overlook Kamala Harris would be a failure of decorum. Did anyone ever think Dan Quayle was presidential material?
Very good of you to let us hear the voices of these DOS resignees. Proves that we haven't lost our minds hating US policy re Israel and Palestine. Can you at some point try to address the elephant in the room, most of Arab nations' seeming inaction. I've heard Gazans bitterly rebuking them.
Mehdi what you’ve done is disrupting ( in an amazing positive way) how the news is given, thank you for being the voice of the voiceless. Keep up the amazing work.
Mehdi, there is an urgent need to have someone explain the implications of the "anti Semitism" bill, which will immunize Israel from criticism. It will position the "Israel Lobby" in the US to become a 21st century version of the East India Company. Israel will no longer be just a foreign country, but a Sacred Object that is above criticism except in constrained approved ways. This bill legally ties Israel and the US together at the hip, and as Israel's behavior exposes it to self-destructive outcomes, it will accelerate US decline.
The ADL has sharply ramped up its budget for this bill. Its a full court press, to bully Americans into subservience. And, to legally cripple anyone who raises their voice by calling them anti Semitic. What is going on today is lightweight compared with what will happen, if this bill becomes law.
The distinguishing facts are that American taxpayers are funding a genocide by Israel against the Palestinian people, who they dispossessed originally under the protection of the British and who after WWII the allies - all of them guilty of antisemitism themselves - assuaged their consciences by allowing a brutal version of settler colonialism take place in Palestine. Why not Bavaria? The Israelis have continued to oppress and brutalize Palestinians, making their lives unlivable, conducting a campaign of dehumanization and perpetuated an illegal apartheid system that even a former American President labeled as such. Social Media has made it possible to witness the atrocious, barbaric, grossly disproportionate 6 month long reign of terror, unending carnage against helpless women and children IN REAL TIME. Biden and all of us are witnessing the total destruction of infrastructure, schools, universities, and hospitals and reduction of the entire area of Gaza to rubble. Illegal settlers in the West Bank are murdering Palestinians on almost a daily basis, with impunity. Add to that the obviously intentional assassination by Israel of media representatives, doctors and aid workers, the lies told about the Oct 7 counter terrorist attack (helpfully trumpeted by the New York Times and other corporate media outlets), and the moral sickness of Israeli soldiers gloating and celebrating the most horrific crimes being committed against a civilian population. AND US TAXPAYERS ARE FUNDING IT!!
Excellent job Medhi- I can understand that people are upset with the Palestinian civilian deaths, I’m not happy about it either. It’s like the Israelis are punishing the Palestinians over Hamas. The Palestinians are caught between two things, they are Hamas and Israel, both are a threat, and all Israel is doing now is creating more enemies. Having said all that, Trump is a threat right now to America, to your freedom and your democratic government. I don’t understand how you could withhold your vote from Biden, which would contribute to a possible Biden’s loss and in return you would get a Trump fascist, authoritarian government that you have helped usher in. I also feel that Biden does care about Palestinians people, but if he were to cut Israel off from all money and all weapons he will lose the election. Every Christian nut case would come out to vote, and vast number of American Jews would not vote for him, the GOP would probably impeach him. Plus the GOP would hang that around his neck in the adds. Biden is having to walk a fine line in election year. I just don’t think we have the power and leverage as we once did over Israel. We get a lot of intel about all types of Middle East threats that are brewing from them. After 9/11 if we lose that we are back square one, just as we are now in Afghanistan. I just think we need to pump the breaks on not voting for Biden over this. The threat is here and now with Trump, and as Citizens we have to much to lose that will not comeback without bloodshed.
What do we say to Palestinian-Americans who have lost family members to the Israeli slaughter? Do they get a pass, or do we expect them to vote Biden as well?
Personally, I think the answer is we all have to work harder - those of us who will be voting for Biden - to replace the voters he's lost through his support of Israeli genocide. Those voters are lost to us, we can't argue them back into the Democratic camp, the best we can do is to reach into the nearly 50% of eligible voters who don't vote and see if some of them can be persuaded to vote. Anyway, that's where I'll be focusing my efforts, I don't have the heart - or the nerve - to tell people who are horrified by genocide that they just need to set that aside for the good of the nation.
Worse than Iraq, and that's saying something! The principled and ethical stance of Annelle, Hala and Tariq give us all a scintilla of hope to know there are still some good people of conscience at the ❤️ of the Biden Administration. They came into government to try and make a difference only to find their efforts constantly stymied or ignored. Sadly an avalanche of resignations won't prevent "Genocide Joe" from being Israel's Bitch. He has no choice, if he ever said no, Kristi Norm would probably shoot him! I always enjoy listening to Mary Trump, a Lady with the courage to call out how dangerous her Psychotic Toddler Uncle is. A second term of Donald J "Von ShitzinPantz" Trump will not only confirm the death knell of the United States of America, but that his middle name isn't John, but Judas. He's already proved his traitorous credentials by inciting an insurrection, so throwing his nation under the bus a second time to please his real boss Vladimir Putin, won't be a problem. Great stuff Medhi, the US, and the World, needs your "Unfiltered" Truth.
Thank you very much for again an amazing work in journalism and trusted information combined 🫡🥇👏
Thank you Mehdi. They lie as they breathe 🇵🇸☮️🇵🇸
Will you—or are you trying to—get an interview with Lily Greenberg? I would love to see her on Zeteo!
“It’s worse than Iraq,” Rharrit, a former U.S. diplomat, told Mehdi, adding how she watched pictures “going viral of U.S.-made bombs that would say USA and then would show the children that were killed by those bombs.”
I’m no fan of Biden’s policies and have nothing but contempt for Netanyahu and his fascist government, but claiming our commitment to Israel’s security is worse than Iraq is rich, to say the least.
Foremost, Biden didn’t start the war, nor did Israel, Hamas committed an atrocity against Israel. We can debate Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians before the terror attack, but it still doesn’t justify the slaughter of innocent civilians, or the hostage taking.
Secondly, Biden didn’t manufacture a war that caused the deaths of more than 500,000 Iraqi civilians. Remember, “Shock and Awe”? The bombing of civilian buildings were part of for the course. Not to mention, the $2.5 trillion price tag and over 10k American deaths and 50k casualties.
And lastly, Israel isn’t the 51st state of America, nor is it a protectorate. They are an ally, and when a country’s national security is at stake, they will rarely take advice from anyone, even the country providing them with weapons.
Our relationship with Israel is deeper than the Israeli/Palestinian problem. We have other priorities in the region, including reducing Iran’s influence in the region, and Israel is a big part of the overall security blanket we need to secure our other Allie’s in the region.
We are reluctant partners with Netanyahu, but you can’t change an entire national security strategy because of the Palestinian conflict. Additionally, where is the outrage against Hamas?
"And lastly, Israel isn’t the 51st state of America"
Then why the F we are paying them each and every year and why is it that they have so many Congressmen in our congress?
Ask yourself why we have an entire Republican Party, including their presidential nominee in Putin’s pocket?
When you can answer that question, feel free to get back to me.
It comes down to strategic interests. The reason we can’t control our Allie’s (not just Israel, we have the same issues with the Saudi’s), is the fact that “countries have no friends, only interests.”
Our commitment to a Israel is due to the fact that Israel is part of a wider security apparatus in the region; military and intelligence, that all share a common interest, controlling and reducing Iran’s aggression, power and proxies in the region.
That’s the short answer…:)
"When you can answer that question, feel free to get back to me"
Asking and answering his own question :)
"It comes down to strategic interests."
We are yet to learn what "security apparatus" Israel provide us (the USA) that is worth so many Billion a year and the political cost that we pay to shield this genocidal regime in the UN.
And would we need this "security apparatus" if we were not so complicit in their crimes against humanity.
"When you can answer that question, feel free to get back to me"
Oh please, they aren’t a genocidal regime. They’ve committed acts of genocide after being brutally attacked by a TERRORIST REGIME! And what regime in the ME isn’t genocidal? Every regime in the ME has committed acts of genocide.
Where’s your outrage in Yemen? Iran, the Saudi Arabia and UAE have killed more people than Israel, against other Muslims: 150k by bombing, and famine has killed another 275k people. In addition, in the last nine years over 4.5 million people have been displaced. So again, where’s your outrage of a genocide that has been going on for a decade?
Or the 500k killed by Assad in Syria during the Arab Spring: millions displaced and even more dying of starvation and disease.
And how about the Sudan? Eight million displaced and 14,500 killed since December alone!
Or how about the ethnic cleansing of Armenians taking place in Azerbaijan? 100,400 ethnic Armenians, representing 99% of the remaining population of Nagorno-Karabakh, fled by the end of September, last year. Tens of thousands killed and even more wounded.
So don’t talk about genocidal regimes, unless you’re willing to admit that terror and destruction is caused by all parties. Hamas treats the Palestinians under their rule with an iron fist. NGO’s and journalists alike live in fear when working in Gaza. And not just because of the Israeli’s. Hamas disappears people and tortures them to death.
So wake up from your perennial stupor of ignorance. It’s the Middle East; we can either continue to argue about the past, or find a solution to the future.
And no one wins this argument because all it leads to is more death, destruction and chaos.
"They’ve committed acts of genocide after being brutally attacked by a TERRORIST REGIME"
That makes them a genocidal regime.
Again you ask and answer your own question.
And your Whataboutism has not been lost on me.
Whataboutism? Please! I’m calling out your hypocrisy, ignorance and biases. It’s about being Jewish and your hatred of Jews. Otherwise, you’d acknowledge the other regimes are far worse. Yet you won’t even acknowledge the actual genocides taking place in all the wonderful Arab and Muslim countries in the region. Or their treatment under Muslim monarchies and dictatorships.
How are Jews treated in every other Arab state? Oh that’s right, they’ve been driven out and forced into ghettos. Yet, 2.5 million Palestinians live in Israel; living side by side with their fellow Jewish citizens.
Get a grip, you don’t even understand the word “preemptive”. What a joke!
Israel and Egypt have for many years been the largest recipients of US aid as a bribe for signing a peace treaty with each other when Jimmy Carter was President. Egyptian President Anwar Sadat said words to the effect that he didn’t care how heavily every Israeli man, woman and child were armed just so long as there was peace. Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin — a former terrorist himself — went along with this because even though he wanted the West Bank for Israel this would make him look like a “peacemaker” to the Americans.
The result is ambivalent at best. On the one hand, the Israelis and Egyptians haven’t gone to war with each other since 1973. On the other, we’ve managed to attach ourselves to some odious figures on both sides, starting with Sadat and Begin.
Sadat was killed by the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist organization. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Ayman al-Zawahiri, was one of the masterminds of the Sadat assassination, leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, and went to jail. He later became Osama Bin Laden’s second in command in Al Qaeda.
Don’t fool yourself; the region is filled with shady characters on both sides. We can’t avoid them, and in most cases, we have to deal with them. And if not them, then characters far worse.
Hence, all the simple, easy to understand, wrong answers to a complex problem we call the Middle East. In short, it’s always been a Powder Keg…:)
"We can debate Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians before the terror attack, but it still doesn’t justify the slaughter of innocent civilians, or the hostage taking"....There's nothing to debate anymore. 2 Billion Muslims and Billions more are demanding that Israel pay for Killing over 500,000 innocent Palestinians since 1948, over 98% of them Muslims...Jesus said an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth....So it's it's only fair we have an Israeli for every Palestinian that was slaughtered by the Illigal Zionist occupiers...That's the only way Israel will stop the genocide.. ..Take your antisemitism and violence crap and stick it where the sun doesn't shine....You don't seem to have the same respect for any non-jewish life or for non-jewish religion.....The world will not tolerate your hypocrisy moving forward....The fact is the day my fellow American brothers and sisters wake up and see how the Zionists are using this country and American blood Israel will disappear
I have a lot of respect for non-Jewish lives, apparently you don’t have any respect for Jews. 500,000 killed since 1948? I’m sorry, I believe it was several Arab states that started the wars in 48’, 67’, 73’ and the PLO using Lebanon as a staging ground for terror attacks against Israel. And that’s after the PLO invaded Lebanon in 1975; creating a state within a state, as they started a civil war that has destroyed Lebanon, its economy, and left 150,000 dead, tens of thousands wounded, and hundreds of thousands displaced and left destitute. And this war didn’t include Israel. Lebanon still hasn’t recovered.
Additionally, where is your outrage against Assad? He killed over 500k of his own people during the Arab Spring? Or Saddam, who gassed 300k Kurds? Or the Iran/Iraq war in which Iran sacrificed over a million kids, forcing them to walk into mine fields, just to clear them for their troops. Or the continued demonic treatment of the Afghans under the Taliban rule. Or Turkey committing atrocities against the Kurds!
I can play this game better than you, since you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about or the complexities of the region.
So do us both a favor, and take your own advice, and stick your opinion up your ____!
And if I ever want your advice, I’ll give it to you! Have a great day!…:)
You're misrepresenting the "who started it." Here's the correct sequence of events with regards to 1947-1949. The Palestinians refused to accept UN resolution 181. This partition plan attempted to impose a settlement by giving two-thirds of the indigenous population only 44% of the land. Moreover, the Arab Higher Committee (AHC) was not given a seat at the table to present their case (whereas the Ben-Gurion was). The Zionists ask was 80% of the land for a population entirely consisting of immigrants from Europe (the indigenous Mizrahi Jewish population in 1900 was about 15,000 - the total Jewish population in 1947 was about 600,000). The UN presented itself as "fair minded" by only awarding them 56%. Not incidentally, early Zionists were very clear in their writings - partition was the first step to gaining control of all of historic Palestine (which has been the Zionist endeavour from the get go).
After the Palestinians rejected the partition plan (November 1947), Zionist militias (Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang) put into motion the ethnic cleansing (which the Zionists sanitised by calling it 'transfer') to depopulate Palestinian villages, towns and cities. By May 1948 - when Israel declared its independence - over 250,000 Palestinians were already expelled and the neighbouring Arab countries were faced with a refugee crisis, which is what led them to attack Israel. Needless to say, they all got walloped which is why 78 percent of the land was captured by the Israelis and another half million were driven out in the process (in addition to 15,000-20,000 killed).
Again 1967 was a pre-emptive strike too - another naked land grab. Egypt, Syria, Jordan were caught totally unaware (foolishly and naively in my opinion). Egypt left it's airfields totally exposed and it's airforce was wiped out in a matter of hours. Hardly what a country intending to launch an attack does.
1973 - the Egyptians launched the strike pre-emptively to try and get back the Sinai Peninsula. Jordan joined to try and get the West Bank back. Ultimately I think this paved the way for the pacification of both countries where they realised they couldn't prevail militarily against Israel.
I can cite more souces/provide more details if you like, but to get into this 'in the playground' type of framing of "they started it" doesn't line up against the historical record. The Zionist project is a settler colonial one, where the West, to absolve itself for its shameful history of anti-semitism, gave away somebody else's land without any regard for the people who lived there for centuries (these aren't my words, they're Ilan Pappe's, see: https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/israel-palestine-nakba-destroyed-twelve-months-gone-on-75-years). That this would breed resentment and resistance is hardly surprising. The same happened in other settler colonies/military occupations whether it's Ireland, Kenya, Algeria, Vietnam the list goes on. People don't like to have their land taken away from them and to be under the yoke of a foreign military power.
When it comes to moral argument (i.e. where's the outage for Hamas), the words of military historian Robert Asprey are an apt response:
"Terror is the kissing cousin of force, and real or implied, is never far removed from the pages of history. To define and condemn terror from a peculiar social, economic political and emotional plane is to display a self righteous attitude that's totally unrealistic and doomed to be disappointed by harsh facts."
Palestinians don't need to accept anything...It's there land and the occupiers need to either leave voluntarily or by force....and it's almost guaranteed that it would be latter
Well said!
You lost me with "I believe" ....you can find countless sources to disprove your beliefs. The foundation of the state of Israel was a colonial zionist project.
I was being sarcastic in response to his claim that Israel started every war. They didn’t and is easily proven by history.
And the foundation of every society today in the Middle East and Central Asia was a colonial project, including our countries founding. I’m sorry, did you not learn who created all the nation states and kingdoms in the Middle East today? The European colonists.
At least Israel, as a project, which you suggest was the only one created by the United Nations. It would be two, if the Palestinians accepted the partition. Oh wait, weren’t these lands under the control of Jordan and Egypt? Both nations which refused to give Palestinians control or a separate state? That’s right!
This whole idea that Israel is the only “colonial” project created in the region is ridiculous. Seriously, if this is your best argument, first educate yourself!
You lost me with your ignorance!…:)
“Again 1967 was a pre-emptive strike too - another naked land grab. Egypt, Syria, Jordan were caught totally unaware (foolishly and naively in my opinion). Egypt left it's airfields totally exposed and it's airforce was wiped out in a matter of hours. Hardly what a country intending to launch an attack does.”
I’m not misrepresenting anything. It is said that most lies are “lies of omission.” This is when someone simply fails to mention critical facts about a particular situation, purposely misleading the reader to the wrong conclusion.
I wont speak for the Irgun or Stern, as I consider them terror groups like I view the West Bank and East Jerusalem settlers. However, it wasn’t forced deportation of Palestinians after they refused the partition plan. It was the 1948 war initiated by the Arab states who also refused to accept the UN mandate.
Remember, the Palestinians had no homeland, and weren’t a government in 1947. The Brits controlled what is mostly current day Israel, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1917. Jordan controlled the West Bank and Jerusalem, while the Egyptian’s controlled Gaza. Neither nation agreed to give up land for a Palestinian state. So the Palestinians rejection, was a moot point. The Egyptian’s did allow a Palestinian government, but it was just a puppet government with no real power.
The whole truth is that an estimated 726,000 Arabs fled their homes during Israel’s War of Independence. That war was instigated not by the Jews but by the Arabs, who rejected the United Nations’ plan partitioning the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. Israel accepted that plan, but the Arabs chose war.
The vast majority of Arabs left their villages out of their own free will to avoid being caught in the crossfire of war. They were encouraged to do so by their leaders, who told the Arab public that they would soon remove the Jewish population by force and after which they could return to their homes. So nice try.
And Palestinian groups were also attacking Israeli’s. And given that 2.5 million Palestinians are Israeli citizens inside Israel proper, supports my conclusion that it wasn’t ethnic cleaning, but fighting amongst Palestinians and Jewish groups.
That’s said, your interpretation of the 67’ war is rich. It’s been documented that Egypt, Jordan and Syria were planning a coordinated attack. The difference was Israeli intelligence, which thwarted their plans with a “preemptive” attack.
You, yourself, used the word “preemptive,” which literally means (definition) to preempt or forestall something, especially to prevent attack by disabling the enemy. These were your own words, so stop with the false narrative. Those countries were about to attack and moved their troops and tanks close to the Israeli borders, which they claimed were military exercises at the time.
1/5: What makes you think actors only strike pre-emptively in the face of an imminent threat? That’s the limitation international law places. But anyone living in the real world should know full well that pre-emptive force is often used to gain decisive strategic advantages. For opportunistic reasons when your adversary isn’t expecting it in order to change the circumstances on the ground in your favour. This is what the Israelis successfully managed to achieve in 1967 and what the Egyptians failed to accomplish in 1973 (more on that later). Alas, this isn’t the only shortcoming in your response. It’s yet another farrago of distortions and misrepresentations that demonstrate a factually incorrect and shallow understanding of the historical context which in turn render the conclusions you’ve drawn fundamentally flawed.
Anyone who’s reasonably knowledgeable on this subject should’ve clearly understood the overarching context and background behind my previous post re: what transpired between November 1947 to May 1948. The historical record isn’t disputed amongst serious observers. However, since you seem to be unaware of it, I’ll lay it out in greater detail for your benefit.
Zionism, at least its mainstream stand, is a settler colonial ideology that originated amongst European Jewry in the late 1800s to establish a homeland in between the between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. In fact there are others, albeit a minority, who subscribe to the boundaries laid out in the Book of Exodus – from the Red Sea to the Euphrates River. At the turn of the 20th century, ~95% of the population on this land was Palestinian Arab (overwhelmingly Muslim with a small Christian community). There was also a small Mizrahi Jewish community of ~15,000 (3.2%) who’d lived there for generations alongside their Muslim and Christian neighbours. Early Zionists were fully cognisant of this demographic challenge from the get go. They knew that the creation of a Jewish majority state on all of the territory they coveted would require a drastic form of social engineering. And just to be clear, at no point were the Zionists ever interested in establishing bi-national state or a permanent partition of historic Palestine. According to Israeli historian Simha Flapan, partition was at most viewed as a first step, or a tactical manoeuver in their eventual goal. Flapan quotes David Ben-Gurion, who said in the late 1930s, “after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” So much for “Israel accepted the plan, but the Arabs chose war.” As to why the Palestinians rejected the partition plan, briefly there were two reasons. First, the Palestinians, unlike the Zionists, weren’t allowed lobby their case to the UN. Second, Palestinians, who’d called this land their home for at 40-50 generations if not longer and made up two-thirds of the population were only given 44% of the land whereas the remaining 56% was given to a settler population of new migrants who’d been there for ~50 years. Failing to acknowledge that this was a fundamentally unjust proposal is “lying by omission.”
Going back to the social engineering that would be necessary for the Zionists to accomplish their ambition. From the very beginning, early Zionists knew that it’d have to involve ethnic cleansing. Theodore Herzl articulated this in somewhat benign, ambiguous terms when he wrote in his diary in 1895, “Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment…. Both the process of expropriation and removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.” By the mid-1930s however, Zionist leaders voiced their plans were far more explicitly. In fact, the Jewish Agency held a closed door meeting in June 1938 in which they recognised that the only way to accomplish their goal was through “compulsory transfer.” Ben-Gurion clarified in no uncertain terms what this meant when he wrote in 1941, “it is impossible to imagine (a) general evacuation of the Arab population without compulsion, and brutal compulsion.” Israel’s chief historian Benny Morris makes it very clear that “the idea of transfer is as old as modern Zionism and has accompanied its evolution and praxis during the past century.”
2/5: When it became clear that the UN wasn’t going to try and mediate a more equitable solution (that consulted with the majority population and took demographics into account) than the 56-44 partition plan, the Zionists seized the opportunity to alter the conditions on the ground decisively in their favour. Between November 1947 and May 1948 (i.e. before Israel declared its independence), Zionist militias started the process of forcibly depopulating cities, towns and villages of its Palestinian inhabitants. By late February 1948, after the British withdrew all their forces to the port city Haifa, the militias seized doubled down to accelerate this process (putting into effect Plan Dalet a couple of weeks later). By the end of April, Palestinians were driven out of their homes en masse in the cities of Haifa, Jaffa, Safad, Beisan, Acre and West Jerusalem. This was followed by massacres such as Deir Yassin which increased the fear amongst the population and caused more people to flee. Over 250,000 Palestinians were forcibly expelled and fled to neighbouring Arab countries. In response to this rapidly escalating refugee crisis, the Arab armies reluctantly attacked Israel after its declaration of independence in May 1948. In short, it’s blatantly dishonest to suggest that the “Arabs chose war.”
In fact, the record shows that the neighboring Arab states were reluctant to attack Israel as they were militarily inferior. After all, the Zionist militias which became the IDF had developed into a formidable fighting force under the tutelage of the British in the 1930s and 1940s when they brutally crushed the 1936 Palestinian revolt and fought alongside the British Army in North Africa during WWII. Inevitably, the Arab armies were successfully repelled and another 0.5 million Palestinians were ethnically cleansed as Israel expanded beyond the partition plan borders and captured 78% of the land by the time the armistice was signed in 1949. You’ve raised three factually incorrect points which relate to the 1947-49 period that I’ll address separately in greater detail in the interest of clarity – the status of the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem, Palestinian citizens of Israel and the Arabs fled voluntarily.
Israeli elites at that time were remarkably candid about their fundamental character as a colonising force, and cognisant of the antagonism that this would ferment amongst Palestinians and the larger Arab world. In the wake of the 1948 war, Ben-Gurion candidly told the President of World Jewish Congress, “If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel, It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Or Ze’ev Jabotinsky who wrote, “Colonisation is self-explanatory and what it implies is fully understood by every sensible Jew and Arab. There can only be one purpose in colonisation. For the country’s Arabs that purpose is essentially unacceptable. This is a natural reaction and nothing will change it.”
As such, an honest reading of the historical record shows that the 1949 armistice gave birth to a new and uneasy status quo. On one hand, there was Israel whose territorial aspirations weren’t completely fulfilled (I’m just focussing on the mainstream Zionist interpretation of “river to the sea” here). On the other hand, there were the neighbouring Arab countries who were humiliated in 1948 and faced with a more powerful, adversarial and expansionist settler colonial state that they wanted to push back against and ideally dismantle in what was in essence an anti-colonial endeavour from their perspective.
3/5: To digress slightly before discussing June 1967, it is patently false to claim that the West Bank and Jerusalem were part of Transjordan in 1917. Nice try to redraw the map and reinvent history! Look at any map of Mandatory Palestine, throughout 1917-1948, included what is today Green Line Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip from 1917-1948. Even an arm of the Israeli Hasbara machine got it correct (refreshingly for a change, see: https://embassies.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/Maps/Pages/The%20League%20of%20Nations%20Mandate%20for%20Palestine%20-%201920.aspx?itid=lk_inline_enhanced-template). Cities and towns that are in the West Bank today, such as Jericho, Nablus, Jenin, Ramallah etc. were all part of Mandatory Palestine, never Transjordan. Jerusalem too was under British control throughout the mandate. This is completely in line with the intent expressed in the Balfour Declaration. Gaza and the West Bank only came under Egyptian and Jordanian control post 1948 (I’ll discuss Gaza separately further below in response to your point on the Palestinian citizens of Israel). In his book “Collusion Across the Jordan,” British-Israeli historian Avi Shlaim provides a detailed account of how the Hashemite King of Jordan covertly negotiated with the Zionists before the end of the British mandate to gain control of the West Bank because he wanted access to more fertile land (Jordan itself is mostly arid desert). In exchange, the Jordanians held back their forces while the Zionist militias went on to capture and ethnically cleanse cities such as Lydd and Ramleh as well as the surrounding towns and villages just beyond the West Bank and absorb them all into the state of Israel. The Israelis were prepared to temporarily accept this outcome so they wouldn’t have to contend with potentially having another ~300,000 Palestinians within their borders for the time being (contextualised further below in response to your point regarding the Palestinian citizens of Israel).
Attack by Jordan and Syria and Egypt was imminent in 1967: this assertion is patently false. When Israeli foreign minister Abba Eban told Lyndon Johnson on May 26, 1967 that its Arab neighbours were about to launch an attack, Robert McNamara refuted this claim with reports from three separate intelligence groups who all unanimously agreed “that an attack was not imminent.” Moreover, Washington knew full well that Israel’s military was far superior to the militaries of all the Arab countries combined. Johnson’s response to Eban makes this abundantly clear: “if they do, you’ll whip the hell out of them.” Following the Six Day War, five Israeli Generals – Ezer Weizmann, Chiam Herzog, Haim Bar Lev, Matitiyahu Peled and Yeshiyahu Gavish – the affirmed this assessment. As I already mentioned in my previous post, Israel launched this pre-emptive attack in June 1967 to expand its borders, to correct the “fatal historical mistake.” This is completely in line with the territorial ambitions of the Zionist project, which coveted the West Bank from the get go. Not only was the land very fertile, but its symbolic importance in Jewish tradition is massive.
For as long as he was in power, Ben-Gurion was caught in a dilemma. On one hand, he lamented colluding with King Abdullah I in what he termed “bechiya ledorot” or a “fatal historical mistake.” Yet throughout his time in power until 1963, he ultimately resisted pressure from other factions within Israel to capture the West Bank because he firmly believed that the nascent Jewish state wasn’t in a position to absorb hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. According to Israeli historian Tom Segev, the “Greater Israel Lobby” gained far more influence after Ben-Gurion left government and pushed much harder for the annexation of the West Bank. In short, the impetus to launch an attack to achieve this end markedly increased from 1963 onwards.
This is not to say that the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians didn’t ‘poke the bear’ with provocative skirmishes with the Israelis throughout the 1950s and 1960s. Gamal Abdul Nasser employed a dangerous tactic called “brinksmanship” where he test the limits of the Israeli and UN response by deploying some troops in the Sinai Peninsula (which was to be a demilitarised zone after the 1956 Suez Crisis). While the Jordanians employed hostile rhetoric on occasion, they actually killed and captured more Palestinians attempting to infiltrate the Green Line than the Israelis did throughout the 1960s. And yes, there were tit for tat retaliations between Israel and Syria along the border. Damascus also hosted the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) which undoubtedly antagonised the Israelis. But to contend that Israel somehow faced an existential threat, an imminent attack from its neighbours is hyperbolic nonsense.
"when a country’s national security is at stake, they will rarely take advice from anyone, even the country providing them with weapons."
Well, if they know the country supplying them with weapons will ALWAYS supply them with weapons no matter what, that does tend to reduce the incentive to take the advice, doesn't it?
Secondly, do you seriously believe that Israel is being made MORE secure by what they're doing today in Gaza?
In answer to your second question, I have said NO! If you actually read my comments, you’d know I was against the invasion, and have no love lost for Netanyahu, or his fascist cohorts in the Knesset.
They are war criminals, as is Hamas. What’s missing from many who comment, is the outrage of other actual genocides taking place in the region, in which Israel isn’t involved. Where’s the outrage or condemnation? Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Armenia, etc….
In answer to your first question, we supply Israel with weapons for several reasons. Under the terms of the Israel/Egyptian Peace Accord (1977), we are required to arm both Israel and Egypt. Secondly, like I’ve tried to convey in earlier posts, it’s not just about the Palestinians.
America has strategic interests in the region. Like it or not, when we stop needing oil, and our western and Asian Allies stop needing oil, no one will give a damn about the region: it’s called realpolitik and every nation chooses sides for their own strategic interests.
Additionally, We have an obligation to our Allies, as the only true superpower, to make sure the oil keeps flowing; keeping global prices constant or as stable as possible for all of our economies to prosper. 25% of the global oil supply ships out of the Persian Gulf. The Straight of Hormuz is only 21 miles wide (certain parts) and easy pickings if Iran wanted to shut down the ship lanes. Which would cause oil prices to rise into the stratosphere. Israel is part of the strategic bulwark that keeps Iran’s aggression and proxies in check, so they can’t act with impunity.
Look how bent and out of shape Americans get when the national price of oil is above $5 a gallon? they’re willing to elect a fascist authoritarian kleptocrat and replace democracy forever.
This is my point Steve. This issue is complex. Yet, all I hear from commenters are simple, easy to understand wrong answers to this conundrum.
So we can continue to debate the past, or try to resolve the conflict for the future. I choose the latter option!
When sophisticated analysis is used to argue that our hands are tied, there's nothing we can do, it tends to give sophistication a bad name.
Don’t feed the trolls, Steve. It’s too bad. An interesting conversation was emerging.
Cheers!
Seriously Davena, learn the meaning of the word troll before you continue to embarrass yourself. I was the one initially posting, you and Steve are the trolls! If you don’t like my views, you don’t need to respond.
No wonder you don’t understand the complexities of the Middle East conflict, you don’t even know what a troll is. Maybe one day you’ll at least finish your GED; good luck and god speed…:)
"finish your GED..."
Christ, what an asshole.
We can agree on that point. I’m not arguing any of this is right, but what is your solution? Apparently, the solution of most of the commenters, is that Israel needs to pick up and leave or be killed.
Only delusional imbeciles would think this option is possible or achievable. Israel is a nuclear nation (fourth largest stockpile in the world), with one of the best militaries, and best intelligence network in the region. They are the third largest economy in Central Asia; behind Turkey and Saudi Arabia, respectively. And while Israel has little natural resource wealth, they are close to a $600 billion GDP in a country of 8.5 million. Compare that to Saudi Arabia’s GDP of $750 billion, and a population of 40 million.
Additionally, Israel’s economy is based on technology. And next to Silicon Valley, Israel’s high tech sector is second to none.
That said, I’d like to find a solution, not continually hear from the dreamers who live in a false reality. So when this newsletter is about Gaza being worse than the manufactured war in Iraq, I call BS. It’s not even close, and only hurts any possible chance of reconciliation into the future, since we’re arguing about the past, and not focusing on the future.
Depends which side of history you want to be on. Do you want to be the simple-minded moralizer arguing slavery is wrong, or do you want to be the sophisticated guy pointing out how essential slavery is to the economy of the South?
Defending Israel’s right to exist is in your mind defending slavery? Got it! It’s all Israel’s fault!
Seriously, find a good therapist, you definitely have a few bats flying around the attic. And only a simple minded moron would even make that suggestion. I’ll leave it at that! Have a good evening!
You ever seen The Sorrow and The Pity, about the Nazi occupation of France? The people who were in the resistance are interviewed, none of them have anything very sophisticated to say beyond "I wanted the Germans out of my country", but the people who stood by and did nothing, or even aided the occupiers, oh boy do they have some sophisticated arguments to make.
Steve, with all due respect, I don’t need to see a holocaust documentary to understand the Holocaust. I lost 75% of my family to the Nazi’s and Russians, something you’ll never understand and hopefully never experience.
Secondly, you seem to think you’re on the right side of history, yet you have no conception of history, and conflate actions of individual men with the state of Israel, at a time of great mass confusion, a genocide and years of conflict in Palestine.
I, like many Jews do not believe the Israeli response was required. Netanyahu is sending Israel down a rabbit hole, which will only make matters worse for all parties, and only intensify future conflicts.
Many of us believe in a two state solution, and would like to handover Netanyahu and his cohorts to the ICC for crimes against humanity. The treatment of the Palestinians in the territories is inhumane.
I’ve actually been fighting through the J Street, which is a Jewish PAC that supports a two-state solution and is the antithesis of AIPAC. I have family in Israel fighting for Palestinian rights. What are you doing except criticizing people in a comment section? Exactly!
Furthermore, you believe Iran, where women are beaten to death for not wearing a hijab is far more democratic nation than Israel? It’s this stupidity, and your compete ignorance of the region that makes people like you dangerous.
I’ve lived in Beirut, Tel Aviv, Morocco, Tunisia and traveled to Jordan, Egypt and the UAE on business for weeks and months at a time. I listen to different viewpoints all the time, and my opinions evolve over time. I judge each individual event separately, rather than conflating decades and centuries of pain experienced by all parties. What’s your experience and understanding of the issues? You read a few newsletters and documentaries?
And you actually think watching a documentary makes you an expert, and gives you all the answers? I’ve listened to your nonsense as much as I’m willing to put up with.
What’s interesting is that in your comments you manage to say a lot of things, yet nothing worthwhile; all at the same time. A difficult feat, indeed!
So continue with your useless rants and ridiculous nonsense, I really couldn’t care less!
Robert McNamara was a brilliant man, well-read, well-travelled, conversant with all the experts on Southeast Asia. He knew far more and had much more sophisticated ideas than the students who were chanting "Hey hey LBJ how many kids did you kill today?"
Looking back on it now, who was wrong and who was right?
(Now let's all watch Robert deliberately misinterpret this as "He's saying Israel=Vietnam! That's just CRAZY TALK!")
George Schultz, Ronald Reagan's Secretary of State was much more widely read, more widely travelled, more generally knowledgeable about the world than the college students in their encampments demanding divestment from Apartheid South Africa. Schultz had many sophisticated arguments for why the students demands were unrealistic and even hurtful to the people they claimed to be helping.
Looking back on it now, who was right?
It's not a documentary about the Holocaust, it's a documentary about the occupation of France (although the Holocaust does feature in it, with regard to Jews shipped from France for extermination.)
And my point, which you're repeatedly (maybe deliberately?) missing is that "My analysis is sophisticated and yours is not" is not quite the devastating put-down you seem to think it is. Throughout history, people have always had "sophisticated" arguments for why we can do no more than to accommodate evil. that any fundamental change based on admittedly simple moral principles is impractical and even impossible. Usually these people are wrong, I can supply other examples if you're interested, but I'm guessing you're not.
Steve, while I respect your opinions, you’re being naive….:)
Ha, that's what that French police chief said!
Pot-kettle, Steve?
If you’re accusing me of standing by or being complicit, think again. You’re as much a bystander as I am. And I never defended Netanyahu or his policies. I’ve been extremely critical of him, and his tin-foil hat religious wing-nut government; even before this war.
As far as I’m concerned, this invasion is and was a mistake, especially Rafah. Netanyahu is heading Israel down a rabbit hole; the same revenge tour w conducted after 9/11. And the total damage still incalculable.
That said, I take issue with this whole idea that the state of Israel itself is illegitimate and a colonialist experiment or project. The entire ME was divided by the West. Are you suggesting all the gulf and Sunni governments relinquish their control and leave? Or what is your solution? I actually haven’t heard anything come from your comments except criticism of me. No actual refuting of the facts.
And you are naive, because you don’t understand the complexities of the region; if you did, you’d be actually providing evidence that I’m wrong.
So don’t expect me to respond to your next comment. I’d rather focus my time on finding solutions to this tragedy, instead of having to defend Jewry against a bush of anti-Semitic individuals (not suggesting your are one) who think Gaza is worse than Iraq, or worse than any of the other genocides taking place in the ME, Africa and Central Asia, as we speak.
Have a good evening Steve!
Israel is supported as far more than just an ally, in the sense that (for example) the US team at Oslo included Martin Indyk, who ran AIPAC. There is a backchannel that has been incompletely explored. Suppose the US ambassador to Israel was a Palestinian American, would that change things? There are active conflicts of interest that have encouraged Israel to put expansion above prudence.
The other problem for Israel today is unconditional US support has led to moral hazard. Israel is in mortal danger of self-destruction. For the past 7 months it has been openly killing its neighbor's kids while the entire neighborhood is watching, in real time. How do you think that will end?
Eventually, Israel must live with its neighbors, and all the US can do is provide money, weapons, vetoes, and knock off it neighbors.....Iraq, Libya, Syria. Iran is hopefully a bridge too far.
I agree with some of your comments. America is bought and paid for by special interests, but some of those interests are National Security interests, which I’ve already documented or commented on.
As for knocking off its neighbors? Not quite! Jordan and Egypt are at peace with Israel. Morocco and Tunisia also have relations with Israel. Syria supports Hezbollah, and Iran supports both Hezbollah and Hamas.
The Sunni Gulf states have had National security agreements with Israel for over a decade. Israel has even used Saudi airspace to conduct air operations against Iran and their intelligence agencies share information on Iran regularly.
What all these countries have in common is they have all used the Palestinian issue as a political football in the past. Today, all view the Palestinians as a problem no one wants to deal with.
So ask yourself why no one cares about the Palestinians? It’s because they’ve always been a thorn in the side of every one of these countries.
The biggest mistake Israel made was occupying these territories. They tried to give Gaza back to the Egyptian’s during the return of the Sinai Peninsula, but Egypt didn’t want Gaza back. Jordan was offered the West Bank and flatly refused.
Yet, here we are. Today, while we argue about the history, and all the wrongs and atrocities committed by not only Israel, but all of these nations, including the Palestinians (see Lebanon Civil War in which the PLO created a state within a state), the religious fanatics on by sides grow stronger and more intransigent.
Perhaps a paradigm shift in these discussions is warranted…:)
The Palestinians are the only group with legal standing to contest the land, which is why Israel wants them gone. The model they are mimicking is that of the US and native americans... attrition, killing, expulsions, and thats whats been happening, and it continues.
The difference now is that the US is no longer as dominant. Israels behavior is a threat to US national security because it is accelerating US decline. The script has flipped. Biden is living in nostalgia, and his professionals are disgusted.
It is also really dumb to attack students with weapons rather than arguments. This will only mean that the protests grow. This is why the Lobby is pushing the nuclear option of pushing for a law that makes criticism of Israel illegal. Like frankenstein they are panicking in the sunshine, they prefer the shadows.
I agree with this assessment. I have not defended Netanyahu or his fascist government. This invasion was a revenge tour that’s only making matters worse, and pulling all of Israel into a rabbit hole; while these religious fanatics are deciding the fate of both countries.
And I agree, Israel is bringing us down with them. I was only defending Israel’s right to exist, and the ridiculous argument that Gaza is worse than the manufactured war in Iraq.
Otherwise, we agree that this is a travesty and the Palestinians are suffering greatly.
I don't think any country has a "right" to exist. The Israelis are sensitive on this point, and they need to get over it. The charge of antisemitism is getting silly, specially when it is now applied to Jewish Americans.
It is becoming increasingly clear to all that the Palestinians are the victims. Again, a role reversal.
Huh? No country has the right to exist? That’s your story and you’re sticking to it? I won’t bother even trying to respond!
I agree, it’s not all anti-semitism. Many on this site are Hamas supporters. So you’re right, it’s not anti-semitism, it’s pure hatred of Jews. How many will even suggest that Hamas slaughtered Jews? All I hear are people saying Jews deserved it.
It all started on October 6th.
Of 1948.
The Nakba never ended.
Palestinians have lived in an open air prison aka concentration camp controlled by Israel for decades. Please know your middle eastern history before repeating Israeli propaganda.
Human Rights Groups have been writing extensive damning reports against Israel for years. Have you not been following along? Or that just doesn't fit your narrative? Is it too uncomfortable for you to read them?
I know my history, and according to you, Palestinians have been treated badly in the occupied territories since 48’. Perhaps you’re confusing the treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank, by Egypt and Jordan, respectively; since Israel did t control the territories until 1967.
And Nakba did occur, but not in the scale you say. Palestinians did leave on their own accord, because the Arab leaders told them to. And the Arab countries attacked the new state of Israel in 1948; this is not in dispute. And Whether you agree that Israel should, or not exist by a UN mandate, is irrelevant since it does, in fact exist.
That said, I’m not going to debate the past. I have never supported the occupation. I don’t support the Netanyahu government, and I certainly didn’t support the response to the horrendous terrorist attack by Hamas on October 6th.
The difference between me and a lot of people in this discussion, is I believe in a two state solution, and condemn the current Israeli government, while it appears you, and many others support the Hamas government that is responsible of the attack.
By the way, these same world human rights groups that criticize Israel (I agree) for their treatment of the Palestinians, also criticize Hamas, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Hezbollah, and every other Middle Eastern government in the region.
So what’s your point?
Great interview! Nice to get an insider's perspective. Would be nice to go deeper into their personal experiences in the White House post Oct.7th. Tariq's admission of the White House dictating policy to educational institutions in this matter was so interesting.
And explains the authoritarianism witnessed across university campuses in America. They are afraid. Of what, exactly? Equality? Human rights for all?
After thoroughly analysing and reading about Israeli's lies, I have found that the following process/mechanism/stratagem has been ALWAYS followed by Israel :
1. First : Israel publishes a false statement (Oct. 7th lies, Al Maamadani Massacre, Sheereen Abu Akla killing ...etc). Then these false "statements" are automatically spread by the majority (if not all) mainstream media as being the official information coming from Israel. So, the whole "civilised" world retains these "statements" because Israel (used to have) has "legitimacy".
2. After several days, Israel, sometimes, publishes a new statement refuting its first statement (sometimes accompanied by a crazy argument). This erratum is not always relayed by mainstream media, and even when it is relayed, it is done briefly.
Outcome : Israel knows that the impact of its first "false" statement will be VERY IMPORTANT on the audience. Israel also knows that its second statement will not get much attention, because in the meantime, the well-oiled propaganda machine has already allowed Israel to get all the returns it wants from the first "false" statement. Besides, to keep its "legitimacy", the second statement is always here for those who dare to say that Israel is spreading lies.
Sound is too bad. Those at Mehdi's desk sound clear. Those on zoom or whatever are not clear. Sound is broken!
The early interview was excellent and I applaud all three of the guests for their bravery in not being complicit in the administration’s handling of the situation in Israel. But the show totally lost me in the Mary Trump interview. It was put forward that people aren’t paying attention to the disaster of a second Trump presidency. I would counter that people are paying to the disaster of the Biden presidency. The Rafah redline was crossed but another 1.2 billion worth of weaponry is being sent to Netanyahu. So our choice for the country is a crazy authoritarian former president or the current unrepentant war criminal president who just is incapable of changing course. He and the faction of the Democratic Party that still is supporting his stance on the Gaza genocide are handing the next election to Trump. Mary says it’s too late in the game to change candidates and to overlook Kamala Harris would be a failure of decorum. Did anyone ever think Dan Quayle was presidential material?
Very good of you to let us hear the voices of these DOS resignees. Proves that we haven't lost our minds hating US policy re Israel and Palestine. Can you at some point try to address the elephant in the room, most of Arab nations' seeming inaction. I've heard Gazans bitterly rebuking them.
Mehdi what you’ve done is disrupting ( in an amazing positive way) how the news is given, thank you for being the voice of the voiceless. Keep up the amazing work.
Mehdi, there is an urgent need to have someone explain the implications of the "anti Semitism" bill, which will immunize Israel from criticism. It will position the "Israel Lobby" in the US to become a 21st century version of the East India Company. Israel will no longer be just a foreign country, but a Sacred Object that is above criticism except in constrained approved ways. This bill legally ties Israel and the US together at the hip, and as Israel's behavior exposes it to self-destructive outcomes, it will accelerate US decline.
The ADL has sharply ramped up its budget for this bill. Its a full court press, to bully Americans into subservience. And, to legally cripple anyone who raises their voice by calling them anti Semitic. What is going on today is lightweight compared with what will happen, if this bill becomes law.
💔💔
The distinguishing facts are that American taxpayers are funding a genocide by Israel against the Palestinian people, who they dispossessed originally under the protection of the British and who after WWII the allies - all of them guilty of antisemitism themselves - assuaged their consciences by allowing a brutal version of settler colonialism take place in Palestine. Why not Bavaria? The Israelis have continued to oppress and brutalize Palestinians, making their lives unlivable, conducting a campaign of dehumanization and perpetuated an illegal apartheid system that even a former American President labeled as such. Social Media has made it possible to witness the atrocious, barbaric, grossly disproportionate 6 month long reign of terror, unending carnage against helpless women and children IN REAL TIME. Biden and all of us are witnessing the total destruction of infrastructure, schools, universities, and hospitals and reduction of the entire area of Gaza to rubble. Illegal settlers in the West Bank are murdering Palestinians on almost a daily basis, with impunity. Add to that the obviously intentional assassination by Israel of media representatives, doctors and aid workers, the lies told about the Oct 7 counter terrorist attack (helpfully trumpeted by the New York Times and other corporate media outlets), and the moral sickness of Israeli soldiers gloating and celebrating the most horrific crimes being committed against a civilian population. AND US TAXPAYERS ARE FUNDING IT!!
Please fix the sound quality of remote attendees.
Excellent job Medhi- I can understand that people are upset with the Palestinian civilian deaths, I’m not happy about it either. It’s like the Israelis are punishing the Palestinians over Hamas. The Palestinians are caught between two things, they are Hamas and Israel, both are a threat, and all Israel is doing now is creating more enemies. Having said all that, Trump is a threat right now to America, to your freedom and your democratic government. I don’t understand how you could withhold your vote from Biden, which would contribute to a possible Biden’s loss and in return you would get a Trump fascist, authoritarian government that you have helped usher in. I also feel that Biden does care about Palestinians people, but if he were to cut Israel off from all money and all weapons he will lose the election. Every Christian nut case would come out to vote, and vast number of American Jews would not vote for him, the GOP would probably impeach him. Plus the GOP would hang that around his neck in the adds. Biden is having to walk a fine line in election year. I just don’t think we have the power and leverage as we once did over Israel. We get a lot of intel about all types of Middle East threats that are brewing from them. After 9/11 if we lose that we are back square one, just as we are now in Afghanistan. I just think we need to pump the breaks on not voting for Biden over this. The threat is here and now with Trump, and as Citizens we have to much to lose that will not comeback without bloodshed.
What do we say to Palestinian-Americans who have lost family members to the Israeli slaughter? Do they get a pass, or do we expect them to vote Biden as well?
Personally, I think the answer is we all have to work harder - those of us who will be voting for Biden - to replace the voters he's lost through his support of Israeli genocide. Those voters are lost to us, we can't argue them back into the Democratic camp, the best we can do is to reach into the nearly 50% of eligible voters who don't vote and see if some of them can be persuaded to vote. Anyway, that's where I'll be focusing my efforts, I don't have the heart - or the nerve - to tell people who are horrified by genocide that they just need to set that aside for the good of the nation.
Worse than Iraq, and that's saying something! The principled and ethical stance of Annelle, Hala and Tariq give us all a scintilla of hope to know there are still some good people of conscience at the ❤️ of the Biden Administration. They came into government to try and make a difference only to find their efforts constantly stymied or ignored. Sadly an avalanche of resignations won't prevent "Genocide Joe" from being Israel's Bitch. He has no choice, if he ever said no, Kristi Norm would probably shoot him! I always enjoy listening to Mary Trump, a Lady with the courage to call out how dangerous her Psychotic Toddler Uncle is. A second term of Donald J "Von ShitzinPantz" Trump will not only confirm the death knell of the United States of America, but that his middle name isn't John, but Judas. He's already proved his traitorous credentials by inciting an insurrection, so throwing his nation under the bus a second time to please his real boss Vladimir Putin, won't be a problem. Great stuff Medhi, the US, and the World, needs your "Unfiltered" Truth.