So powerful to have these two public thinkers in conversation with one another. The politico-religious arguments Klein offers are so powerful, and I love the idea that we have more of these kinds of debates in a multifaith democracy where we show how our beliefs and covenants connect to political issues.
"Secular" doesn't need to mean "without religion" - it simply means that we know how to pull out the best philosophies and commitments within our faiths to share those principles and practices with others, to the benefit of all. So grateful this conversation happened.
Naomi always has "fresh eyes" on certain topics and finds meanings others may have missed. I love that she discovered what Montague had to say about Zionism. There is more truth than fiction in that reasoning, and his dire warnings seem to have come true.
Student protests may be the most potent movement to halt the genocide in Gaza. They require greater awareness and public support to persist as needed. The establishment is already targeting students to vilify them and quickly suppress this dissent.
A phrase CNN uses all the time is "Guess we'll have to leave it there." The right-wing guest issues a torrent of lies, the host pauses, looks at the clock and says, "Well, thank you very much, guess we'll have to leave it there."
i loved this discussion. I loved how Naomi turned the tables, so to speak, and interviewed Hassan. So many interviews are like autopsies. This one was more of a dance. Bravo!
Excellent conversation. Bringing Naomi in is definitely a plus. The Zionist propaganda is amazingly effective. If anyone can get us past it, it’s Jewish voices.
The Netanyahu government is a disgrace and it will soon be gone. It is not the lasting face of Israel or the historical face of Israel. To speak as if this corrupt government is the meaning of Israel and Zionism is simplistic and wrong.
The reason there was Zionism is because Jews were being murdered in pogroms and then in a historical genocide during ww2 when no one came to defend them. There were no college protests to defend Jews.
Is the reason people became zionists not important? People didn’t out of nowhere decide to leave their homes to go live in a foreign land.
Meanwhile, the college protests are as if scripted by Netanyahu. This division may lead to Biden losing which means Trump will be the next president. That is the real danger.
DM Brooklyn, more Gaslighting? To disparage students sacrificing themselves in an effort to stop an ongoing genocide is pathetic, to say the least. To be fair, it’s despicable as it’s intended to defend the indefensible; justifying the disproportionate reaction of fascists aggressors that persist in using 10/7 as a pretext to justify what they wanted all along; kill all Palestinians; not just the pesky ones that have opposed the theft of their homeland, violation of their rights, apartheid , brutality and more; for over 7 decades. Palestinians never consented to Imperialist British Mandate and/scheme.
If a terrorist hides in a school, would we condone bombing and starving teachers, students and neighbors in an insatiable quest for revenge?
To debate the moral depravity of fascist Zionist Israel is likely offensive to people of goodwill and a contrived distraction from needed action to stop what Dr Bandy X Lee refers to as a ‘death spiral’ in which (modern) humanity finds itself. (This modern madness is led by profit-seeking oligarchs who want even more; their demagogues, sycophants and many vulnerable cult followers.) I regret lacking the patience needed to help de-program gullible cult followers, a worthy/needed mission that requires training and extraordinary patience, as well as free health care for all.
We must support the BDS movement, one that toppled the U.S. supported apartheid in So Africa. If Zionist Biden prefers to continue defending the indefensible genocide we may be obligated to call for him to step-aside. Hopefully, VP Kamala Harris will demand her Zionist mate to shut up while she does the right thing; demand a cease-fire, end non humanitarian aid to Israel, etc. Being antiZionist is not antisemitic; it’s humanistic.
Robert, you hit the nail on the head, I couldn't agree more with your description of how things really are. Time to stop giving a pass to the present Israeli government. Besides, most of the Israeli population agree with what is going on and want it to continue. Shameful.
Would you say that America from 2016 to 2020 during the reign of Donald Trump was a fascist country. No I doubt it. Being governed by monstrous people who barely won does not make Israel a fascist country.
And don’t reply until you can know the difference,
"This division may lead to Biden losing which means Trump will be the next president. That is the real danger."
Yes, I am worried that Biden might lose. Do you think Biden is worried that Biden might lose? Because if he was, he might bring himself more in alignment with the MAJORITY opinion in this country in support of an immediate cease-fire. If Biden was worried about losing, he might pay more heed to the views of young people, who are a critical constituency essential to winning. But if he ignores all these loud and obvious warnings and continues on the path he's on, shipping 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs over to Israel on the regular, and then he loses, whose fault is that? Why, it's the protesters fault, of course!
I see Biden’s approach changing. I think he is paying close attention. I also know that the Mid East issue is much bigger than Gaza. I think you know that too.
If we were talking about people who are upset about gas prices, you'd probably agree that Biden needs to use whatever policy tools he has available to keep gas prices down before the election to increase his chances of winning. As opposed to yelling at people who are upset about gas prices that they really shouldn't be so upset and also IT WILL BE ALL THEIR FAULT if Biden loses.
Wonder why the approach is so different on this issue?
I respectfully disagree with your premise. The protests have arisen out of desperation and a sense of complete loss of hope that our elected leaders will actually do anything to stop the bloodshed. Despite the very real risk of Trump getting reelected, thousands of Americans with a good conscience simply cannot excuse Biden for his fundamental role in funding and enabling this ongoing genocide, damn the consequences.
Oof! Biden’s actions regarding Israel are reprehensible. It is tragic that this is our choice. Our politics have been dragged so far right! But we didn’t land here yesterday. Democrats and Republicans alike have been co-opted by wealth, as have been many of our institutions of higher learning. We can’t solve this by letting ourselves tilt into trumpian fascism. The consequences will damn us all.
DK Brooklyn, focus on the issues rather than indulge in personal attacks. Otherwise, MEHDI ought to ban you from his platform. Intimidation is not an appropriate substitute for persuasion. This space needs to be respected.
Please show me where I have made a personal attack? If saying “shame on you” for advocating we “damn the consequences” is a personal attack I think we need to have a conversation on what is personal.
Do you really believe we should not be concerned about the consequences of actions? I think the consequences is the point of taking action.
And please, were you really intimidated by my comment? Do you think i was disrespectful to you? Is this the kind of comment that should get someone blocked? Really?
My parents were Holocaust survivors. I was born in a DP camp, a refugee camp. That was a genocide that lead to the death of 6 million Jews. Most of my family was murdered by Nazis and yes even Poles. Even though the war war over in eastern Poland my family and others who had returned to their shtetl were still being murdered by Poles who wanted their homes. So they walked across Europe to get to the boats in eastern Italy that were taking Jews to then British Palestine. They were stopped at the Czech border by General Patton…and eventually after 5 years got to America despite the long standing quotas that kept Jewish Holocaust survivors out of this country
But they wanted to go to get to the British Manndate of Palestine because they saw it as the place where long persecuted Jews could be safe.
This conversation between Mehdi, whom I have long admired and Naomi Klein, also long admired is based upon a false and fantastical premise. How is it that when Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich say “from the river to the sea” that it is proof of genocidal intent, but when Medhi, Klein and all those other protesters blithely spout “from the river to the sea”, that it is merely a harmless metaphor?
It is NOT a harmless metaphor. It means to destroy Israel as a Jewish state. There are 7 million Jews in Israel. It certainly is a slogan that can also lead to violence. There is no room there for a two state solution. And a one state solution is nigh impossible and a recipe for oppression and violence by each community against the other.
And I bet far too many in these protest demonstrations are being led to wrongly believe , by people who should know better, that it is not a harmless metaphor, it is not a harmless slogan .
Thank you for your posts. In this venue it took a bit of courage.
By the way I am also disappointed that I don’t see posts about what is happening in this country. America. What about Trump and his incipient fascism? I valued what Mehdi had to say about that and hope he starts to do that again.
I think your question about what propelled the desire for a safe homeland is an important one. The hundreds of years of anti-Semitism in Europe make that question an important one to me. I do think student protests are important in this moment, and that they’re being used as an excuse to crack down on free speech and protest. I hate falling into old binaries and arguments in a moment when we want to think more deeply. And, like you, I want Zeteo comments to be as historically-driven as Mehdi’s work. I don’t want us to fall into easily laid traps and want to respect that there are some complexities in your argument that ought not be reduced or dismissed.
In your eyes, has Zionism been an effective method? And, has Zionism been the best strategy for creating safety for Jews globally? Elsewhere, Mehdi and others have argued that the history and reality of political Zionism have a lot to show us about who urged it, and who continues to benefit most from it today. In the US, evangelical Christian Zionists, funded by dark money forces (billionaires), are leading this political moment behind the scenes and using Jews as a smokescreen for their nefarious efforts. I want a safe place for Jews, but the story of safety that a traumatized people have been sold has justified more genocide and that is horrifying. Jews and Muslims, Israelis and Palestinians are both religious and genetic cousins. The history of colonization, racism, of whitening Jews, or demonizing Islam, of the creation of Europe, of all this really ought to be teased out to help us arrive at a terrain of debate that doesn’t shy away from its complexity. And, complexity can also help bring ethical, political, and social clarity to which answers will NOT save us.
I appreciate your willingness to engage and I hope that others here will take the valid and strong points you make and respond to those. I want us all to practice the difficult work of democracy. I disagree with many of your points about the value of protest, about Israeli (and US) citizens’ complicity with the Netanyahu regime, but within it I hear angst and nervousness about a potential “worst” that is yet to come. It sounds like neither of us want more Trump, and we have different ideas about how to avoid that. My ideas are to lean into the power of civic engagement and to hold steady rather than to cow to a disengaged public’s discomfort with protest. You may have other ideas. I think this platform should exist and be accessible for all of us who want to truly explore these issues with the context Naomi and Mehdi provide and take that as our point of departure. I don’t want these comments sections to become dunking/sparring sessions. I want us to think through this hard and scary moment together.
We need teach ins and learning moments. College Campuses are perfect for that.
Taking over buildings and setting up encampments changes the conversation to “keeping college safe”, etc. none students being called to join the encampments magnifies the “safety “ issue. Are we smart enough to predict what this will lead to and is it what we want. I see calls for the University President to be fired and bring in someone tougher. I see the engaged students being expelled and many might now have a hard time getting employed. It isn’t right, but that is the reality of the world we live in.
I absolutely agree that we need teach-ins and learning moments, and college campuses are perfect for that. I also wonder if the encampments and building take-overs could be a part of that kind of curriculum because there have been moments where those tactics have been incredibly impactful. I was a student organizer at USC during the early 00's and we spent so much energy trying to make meetings with administrators, writing op-eds, organizing student study groups, etc. for various social issues, and all our attempts were either ignored, swatted down, or actively undermined. I think university administrations (and other leadership) can do their part to be more responsive to student politics so we don't get to this fever pitch. I don't want to blame students for taking "last resort options" when university administrations are so dismissive of them. Especially these days, where students are seen as disposable customers, rather than civic minds.
I want everyone on campuses to be safe, as I hear you do as well. I hear you when it comes to the public perception of the encampments - I often dip into Fox News to see how stories are being spun and this one seems rife for false equivalency with Jan 6 (I'm already seeing this happen). It makes me wonder what protest and civil disobedience mean in the moment of propagandistic spin-zones. I don't think we should let our protest be circumscribed by the anxieties of the worst possible spin, and I also think it's a real consideration given our media landscape. I don't know if it's an issue of not being smart enough to predict what will come of the coverage and emerging narrative - I think it's an issue that we already know how it will be spun and many of us feel a bit helpless in that regard.
I am with you also on having concerns for students getting expelled. The fact that students are willing to risk expulsion and huge impacts on their future tells me just how important and urgent this moment is for them. I graduated college into the Great Recession and had one helluva time finding a job and that really sucked, and was so scary. It's made me maneuver workplaces a bit more conservatively since then, which is not my nature. I'm wondering if the scales are tipping, where the kinds of material security that come from respectability/degrees no longer outweighs the consequences young people see from staying more reserved in their political tactics. My work puts me in close contact with high school and college students who are very politically active, and generationally it makes me feel concerned for them, and also uncomfortable because I didn't feel I had the kind of mass peer base to protest in the way they do. I'm working hard to exercise intergenerational humility and really listen to the sense of urgency young people have about issues like Palestine, climate change, fascism, and more.
I'm also worried about who will be the next leaders in universities and the way surveillance and federal control of universities may be coming this way. Perhaps these protests are also just showing us the systems of control that have been in place for longer than we realized on university campuses, and they've eerily been in place for a while, awaiting a moment like this one to squash any kind of political uprising. I appreciate your pragmatism, and I just have a lot of questions. Thanks for engaging with me, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I don't want us to miss where we align because we have some disagreements on strategy.
It isn’t just Fox that is turning this conversation about everything but the essence of the issue. It’s also MSNBC.
If the visual they have is someone breaking a window, it plays all day. If it is someone who looks “radical” and screams that is the loop. If they find a non-student agitator, that will be the focus. There is almost no conversation about what is being asked for by the demonstrators. The shorthand is that they are pro-Palestinian. What does that mean? What are people who hear this expected to think, let alone do?
The purpose of demonstrations is to get attention. It behoves the demonstrators to make it meaningful attention and build on it.
To get people to agree with their thought out and just cause.
Totally, fair enough. You're right - the broader coverage is not great across the spectrum.
It makes me wish that there were more support and guidance given across generations to college students protesting. We used to get some pretty significant advice about discipline and being aware of how things will play out on camera. I can imagine how much more difficult that is these days, given there are cameras everywhere. I wonder if the student activists have specific asks they've delivered to administrations - this is often the case for student leaders but that never gets covered. I wonder what would happen if there were more asks from folks like us to get more nuanced coverage. I don't even know where we can "ask" for that. I hope as this moment and story play out news and media outlets like Zeteo and others help spell that out.
I wonder if letters to the editor or developing some kind of broader letter writing campaign could start to have an impact. I'm not a media expert so don't know the specific leverage points to urge news outlets to have better coverage. I'm sure you and I both know (and are likely a bit cynical) about the profit-driven motives of media outlets these days. It's a frustrating and scary narrative landscape.
Mark your calendars for Monday, June 17 to participate in the not-to-be-missed Munk Debate on Anti-Zionism. 7-9 pm in Toronto. We will probably have access to it on You Tube or through Zeteo at some point, hopefully!
Another fabulous, informed and thought-provoking discussion between two brilliant intellectuals! I am learning more with every interview and program. Thank you Naomi and Mehdi for sharing your insights and analyses. Keep it coming! Love Zeteo!
So refreshing to listen to 2 people who have in depth knowledge based on research & a breadth of lived experience, to inform their point of view. A much needed & appreciated example of how to approach subjects rife with mis/disinformation & deliberate divisive tactics by people with their own agenda.
The issue around Zionism discussed here is that it has a built in deflector shield in the form of Shoah. For decades all the Israeli government had to do when challenged with criticism is announce it as anti Semitism.
It appears that shield is starting to break down and why we are seeing the panic.
So powerful to have these two public thinkers in conversation with one another. The politico-religious arguments Klein offers are so powerful, and I love the idea that we have more of these kinds of debates in a multifaith democracy where we show how our beliefs and covenants connect to political issues.
"Secular" doesn't need to mean "without religion" - it simply means that we know how to pull out the best philosophies and commitments within our faiths to share those principles and practices with others, to the benefit of all. So grateful this conversation happened.
Naomi always has "fresh eyes" on certain topics and finds meanings others may have missed. I love that she discovered what Montague had to say about Zionism. There is more truth than fiction in that reasoning, and his dire warnings seem to have come true.
Lovely, Mehdi, Thank you for all that you do, you are absolutely amazing ❤️❤️❤️
Student protests may be the most potent movement to halt the genocide in Gaza. They require greater awareness and public support to persist as needed. The establishment is already targeting students to vilify them and quickly suppress this dissent.
Great addition to the channel
This is the way to discuss issues--in depth, no rushing to a close for an ad break.
I was wondering if it would be fair to compare Zionism to Manifest Destiny, both being rationales for imperial mandates.
A phrase CNN uses all the time is "Guess we'll have to leave it there." The right-wing guest issues a torrent of lies, the host pauses, looks at the clock and says, "Well, thank you very much, guess we'll have to leave it there."
i loved this discussion. I loved how Naomi turned the tables, so to speak, and interviewed Hassan. So many interviews are like autopsies. This one was more of a dance. Bravo!
The two of you are utterly fabulous!!
Excellent conversation. Bringing Naomi in is definitely a plus. The Zionist propaganda is amazingly effective. If anyone can get us past it, it’s Jewish voices.
The Netanyahu government is a disgrace and it will soon be gone. It is not the lasting face of Israel or the historical face of Israel. To speak as if this corrupt government is the meaning of Israel and Zionism is simplistic and wrong.
The reason there was Zionism is because Jews were being murdered in pogroms and then in a historical genocide during ww2 when no one came to defend them. There were no college protests to defend Jews.
Is the reason people became zionists not important? People didn’t out of nowhere decide to leave their homes to go live in a foreign land.
Meanwhile, the college protests are as if scripted by Netanyahu. This division may lead to Biden losing which means Trump will be the next president. That is the real danger.
DM Brooklyn, more Gaslighting? To disparage students sacrificing themselves in an effort to stop an ongoing genocide is pathetic, to say the least. To be fair, it’s despicable as it’s intended to defend the indefensible; justifying the disproportionate reaction of fascists aggressors that persist in using 10/7 as a pretext to justify what they wanted all along; kill all Palestinians; not just the pesky ones that have opposed the theft of their homeland, violation of their rights, apartheid , brutality and more; for over 7 decades. Palestinians never consented to Imperialist British Mandate and/scheme.
If a terrorist hides in a school, would we condone bombing and starving teachers, students and neighbors in an insatiable quest for revenge?
To debate the moral depravity of fascist Zionist Israel is likely offensive to people of goodwill and a contrived distraction from needed action to stop what Dr Bandy X Lee refers to as a ‘death spiral’ in which (modern) humanity finds itself. (This modern madness is led by profit-seeking oligarchs who want even more; their demagogues, sycophants and many vulnerable cult followers.) I regret lacking the patience needed to help de-program gullible cult followers, a worthy/needed mission that requires training and extraordinary patience, as well as free health care for all.
We must support the BDS movement, one that toppled the U.S. supported apartheid in So Africa. If Zionist Biden prefers to continue defending the indefensible genocide we may be obligated to call for him to step-aside. Hopefully, VP Kamala Harris will demand her Zionist mate to shut up while she does the right thing; demand a cease-fire, end non humanitarian aid to Israel, etc. Being antiZionist is not antisemitic; it’s humanistic.
Robert, you hit the nail on the head, I couldn't agree more with your description of how things really are. Time to stop giving a pass to the present Israeli government. Besides, most of the Israeli population agree with what is going on and want it to continue. Shameful.
Would you say that America from 2016 to 2020 during the reign of Donald Trump was a fascist country. No I doubt it. Being governed by monstrous people who barely won does not make Israel a fascist country.
And don’t reply until you can know the difference,
"This division may lead to Biden losing which means Trump will be the next president. That is the real danger."
Yes, I am worried that Biden might lose. Do you think Biden is worried that Biden might lose? Because if he was, he might bring himself more in alignment with the MAJORITY opinion in this country in support of an immediate cease-fire. If Biden was worried about losing, he might pay more heed to the views of young people, who are a critical constituency essential to winning. But if he ignores all these loud and obvious warnings and continues on the path he's on, shipping 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs over to Israel on the regular, and then he loses, whose fault is that? Why, it's the protesters fault, of course!
I see Biden’s approach changing. I think he is paying close attention. I also know that the Mid East issue is much bigger than Gaza. I think you know that too.
You're satisfied with what Biden is doing, other people are not satisfied. I don't what more there is to say than that.
If we were talking about people who are upset about gas prices, you'd probably agree that Biden needs to use whatever policy tools he has available to keep gas prices down before the election to increase his chances of winning. As opposed to yelling at people who are upset about gas prices that they really shouldn't be so upset and also IT WILL BE ALL THEIR FAULT if Biden loses.
Wonder why the approach is so different on this issue?
I respectfully disagree with your premise. The protests have arisen out of desperation and a sense of complete loss of hope that our elected leaders will actually do anything to stop the bloodshed. Despite the very real risk of Trump getting reelected, thousands of Americans with a good conscience simply cannot excuse Biden for his fundamental role in funding and enabling this ongoing genocide, damn the consequences.
Oof! Biden’s actions regarding Israel are reprehensible. It is tragic that this is our choice. Our politics have been dragged so far right! But we didn’t land here yesterday. Democrats and Republicans alike have been co-opted by wealth, as have been many of our institutions of higher learning. We can’t solve this by letting ourselves tilt into trumpian fascism. The consequences will damn us all.
“Damn the consequences” says it all. Shame on you. You bring on the opposite of what you want. We and the Palestinians will suffer.
In ‘68 the protesters in Chicago led to 8 years of Nixon and many more years of the Vietnam War.
DK Brooklyn, focus on the issues rather than indulge in personal attacks. Otherwise, MEHDI ought to ban you from his platform. Intimidation is not an appropriate substitute for persuasion. This space needs to be respected.
Please show me where I have made a personal attack? If saying “shame on you” for advocating we “damn the consequences” is a personal attack I think we need to have a conversation on what is personal.
Do you really believe we should not be concerned about the consequences of actions? I think the consequences is the point of taking action.
And please, were you really intimidated by my comment? Do you think i was disrespectful to you? Is this the kind of comment that should get someone blocked? Really?
My parents were Holocaust survivors. I was born in a DP camp, a refugee camp. That was a genocide that lead to the death of 6 million Jews. Most of my family was murdered by Nazis and yes even Poles. Even though the war war over in eastern Poland my family and others who had returned to their shtetl were still being murdered by Poles who wanted their homes. So they walked across Europe to get to the boats in eastern Italy that were taking Jews to then British Palestine. They were stopped at the Czech border by General Patton…and eventually after 5 years got to America despite the long standing quotas that kept Jewish Holocaust survivors out of this country
But they wanted to go to get to the British Manndate of Palestine because they saw it as the place where long persecuted Jews could be safe.
This conversation between Mehdi, whom I have long admired and Naomi Klein, also long admired is based upon a false and fantastical premise. How is it that when Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich say “from the river to the sea” that it is proof of genocidal intent, but when Medhi, Klein and all those other protesters blithely spout “from the river to the sea”, that it is merely a harmless metaphor?
It is NOT a harmless metaphor. It means to destroy Israel as a Jewish state. There are 7 million Jews in Israel. It certainly is a slogan that can also lead to violence. There is no room there for a two state solution. And a one state solution is nigh impossible and a recipe for oppression and violence by each community against the other.
And I bet far too many in these protest demonstrations are being led to wrongly believe , by people who should know better, that it is not a harmless metaphor, it is not a harmless slogan .
Thanks for sharing your family story and the lesson.
Thank you for your posts. In this venue it took a bit of courage.
By the way I am also disappointed that I don’t see posts about what is happening in this country. America. What about Trump and his incipient fascism? I valued what Mehdi had to say about that and hope he starts to do that again.
DK Brooklyn,
I think your question about what propelled the desire for a safe homeland is an important one. The hundreds of years of anti-Semitism in Europe make that question an important one to me. I do think student protests are important in this moment, and that they’re being used as an excuse to crack down on free speech and protest. I hate falling into old binaries and arguments in a moment when we want to think more deeply. And, like you, I want Zeteo comments to be as historically-driven as Mehdi’s work. I don’t want us to fall into easily laid traps and want to respect that there are some complexities in your argument that ought not be reduced or dismissed.
In your eyes, has Zionism been an effective method? And, has Zionism been the best strategy for creating safety for Jews globally? Elsewhere, Mehdi and others have argued that the history and reality of political Zionism have a lot to show us about who urged it, and who continues to benefit most from it today. In the US, evangelical Christian Zionists, funded by dark money forces (billionaires), are leading this political moment behind the scenes and using Jews as a smokescreen for their nefarious efforts. I want a safe place for Jews, but the story of safety that a traumatized people have been sold has justified more genocide and that is horrifying. Jews and Muslims, Israelis and Palestinians are both religious and genetic cousins. The history of colonization, racism, of whitening Jews, or demonizing Islam, of the creation of Europe, of all this really ought to be teased out to help us arrive at a terrain of debate that doesn’t shy away from its complexity. And, complexity can also help bring ethical, political, and social clarity to which answers will NOT save us.
I appreciate your willingness to engage and I hope that others here will take the valid and strong points you make and respond to those. I want us all to practice the difficult work of democracy. I disagree with many of your points about the value of protest, about Israeli (and US) citizens’ complicity with the Netanyahu regime, but within it I hear angst and nervousness about a potential “worst” that is yet to come. It sounds like neither of us want more Trump, and we have different ideas about how to avoid that. My ideas are to lean into the power of civic engagement and to hold steady rather than to cow to a disengaged public’s discomfort with protest. You may have other ideas. I think this platform should exist and be accessible for all of us who want to truly explore these issues with the context Naomi and Mehdi provide and take that as our point of departure. I don’t want these comments sections to become dunking/sparring sessions. I want us to think through this hard and scary moment together.
(https://youtu.be/K1VTt_THL4A?si=EUEQkoWo-8QK8aXs)
We need teach ins and learning moments. College Campuses are perfect for that.
Taking over buildings and setting up encampments changes the conversation to “keeping college safe”, etc. none students being called to join the encampments magnifies the “safety “ issue. Are we smart enough to predict what this will lead to and is it what we want. I see calls for the University President to be fired and bring in someone tougher. I see the engaged students being expelled and many might now have a hard time getting employed. It isn’t right, but that is the reality of the world we live in.
I absolutely agree that we need teach-ins and learning moments, and college campuses are perfect for that. I also wonder if the encampments and building take-overs could be a part of that kind of curriculum because there have been moments where those tactics have been incredibly impactful. I was a student organizer at USC during the early 00's and we spent so much energy trying to make meetings with administrators, writing op-eds, organizing student study groups, etc. for various social issues, and all our attempts were either ignored, swatted down, or actively undermined. I think university administrations (and other leadership) can do their part to be more responsive to student politics so we don't get to this fever pitch. I don't want to blame students for taking "last resort options" when university administrations are so dismissive of them. Especially these days, where students are seen as disposable customers, rather than civic minds.
I want everyone on campuses to be safe, as I hear you do as well. I hear you when it comes to the public perception of the encampments - I often dip into Fox News to see how stories are being spun and this one seems rife for false equivalency with Jan 6 (I'm already seeing this happen). It makes me wonder what protest and civil disobedience mean in the moment of propagandistic spin-zones. I don't think we should let our protest be circumscribed by the anxieties of the worst possible spin, and I also think it's a real consideration given our media landscape. I don't know if it's an issue of not being smart enough to predict what will come of the coverage and emerging narrative - I think it's an issue that we already know how it will be spun and many of us feel a bit helpless in that regard.
I am with you also on having concerns for students getting expelled. The fact that students are willing to risk expulsion and huge impacts on their future tells me just how important and urgent this moment is for them. I graduated college into the Great Recession and had one helluva time finding a job and that really sucked, and was so scary. It's made me maneuver workplaces a bit more conservatively since then, which is not my nature. I'm wondering if the scales are tipping, where the kinds of material security that come from respectability/degrees no longer outweighs the consequences young people see from staying more reserved in their political tactics. My work puts me in close contact with high school and college students who are very politically active, and generationally it makes me feel concerned for them, and also uncomfortable because I didn't feel I had the kind of mass peer base to protest in the way they do. I'm working hard to exercise intergenerational humility and really listen to the sense of urgency young people have about issues like Palestine, climate change, fascism, and more.
I'm also worried about who will be the next leaders in universities and the way surveillance and federal control of universities may be coming this way. Perhaps these protests are also just showing us the systems of control that have been in place for longer than we realized on university campuses, and they've eerily been in place for a while, awaiting a moment like this one to squash any kind of political uprising. I appreciate your pragmatism, and I just have a lot of questions. Thanks for engaging with me, I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I don't want us to miss where we align because we have some disagreements on strategy.
It isn’t just Fox that is turning this conversation about everything but the essence of the issue. It’s also MSNBC.
If the visual they have is someone breaking a window, it plays all day. If it is someone who looks “radical” and screams that is the loop. If they find a non-student agitator, that will be the focus. There is almost no conversation about what is being asked for by the demonstrators. The shorthand is that they are pro-Palestinian. What does that mean? What are people who hear this expected to think, let alone do?
The purpose of demonstrations is to get attention. It behoves the demonstrators to make it meaningful attention and build on it.
To get people to agree with their thought out and just cause.
Thanks for encouraging a thoughtful exchange.
Totally, fair enough. You're right - the broader coverage is not great across the spectrum.
It makes me wish that there were more support and guidance given across generations to college students protesting. We used to get some pretty significant advice about discipline and being aware of how things will play out on camera. I can imagine how much more difficult that is these days, given there are cameras everywhere. I wonder if the student activists have specific asks they've delivered to administrations - this is often the case for student leaders but that never gets covered. I wonder what would happen if there were more asks from folks like us to get more nuanced coverage. I don't even know where we can "ask" for that. I hope as this moment and story play out news and media outlets like Zeteo and others help spell that out.
I wonder if letters to the editor or developing some kind of broader letter writing campaign could start to have an impact. I'm not a media expert so don't know the specific leverage points to urge news outlets to have better coverage. I'm sure you and I both know (and are likely a bit cynical) about the profit-driven motives of media outlets these days. It's a frustrating and scary narrative landscape.
Amazing historical perspectives by Ms Klein of the Balfour Declaration and the British complicity in the creation of a thorn in ME.
A very timely discussion on the subject of Anti Semitism and Zionism
Naomi Klein is a very good addition in Zeteo's team.
Godspeed, wish you great success with the platform.
Its only a few weeks but your team is Phenomenal and continue to amaze me.
Well, to be real, Medhi is a great addition to Naomi's team, but it's all cool
Can’t wait for the Toronto debate! When is it? How can we attend virtually ?
Hi, here is the info you want:
Mark your calendars for Monday, June 17 to participate in the not-to-be-missed Munk Debate on Anti-Zionism. 7-9 pm in Toronto. We will probably have access to it on You Tube or through Zeteo at some point, hopefully!
Another fabulous, informed and thought-provoking discussion between two brilliant intellectuals! I am learning more with every interview and program. Thank you Naomi and Mehdi for sharing your insights and analyses. Keep it coming! Love Zeteo!
So refreshing to listen to 2 people who have in depth knowledge based on research & a breadth of lived experience, to inform their point of view. A much needed & appreciated example of how to approach subjects rife with mis/disinformation & deliberate divisive tactics by people with their own agenda.
The issue around Zionism discussed here is that it has a built in deflector shield in the form of Shoah. For decades all the Israeli government had to do when challenged with criticism is announce it as anti Semitism.
It appears that shield is starting to break down and why we are seeing the panic.
It was a very powerful speech for muslims too. thank you so much Naomi.